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Two interesting conversations with 'antis' today (with positive outcomes)

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by atek3, May 9, 2004.

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  1. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    I was at a party and the theme was 'dead warriors', so I borrowed a friends period leather holster, cowboy had, and replica SAA. Considering that this is berkeley, and people know me as the 'gun nut', I got a lot of "is that a real gun".
    "No, its a replica."
    "Can I handle it?"
    "Sure, just respect it like a real gun, don't point it at people."
    "Okay, but why?"
    "What if I was lying, and it was a real, loaded gun and you shot someone."
    "Ohhhh, good point." Usually went the conversation. I got very few, ewww, icky guns.

    Later I was chatting with a female friend who offhandedly mentioned she was "a pretty good shot, better than my mother who was in the armed services, but I haven't shot in years, because I'm afraid of guns."
    "Why are you afraid of them?" I replied.
    "I think I've psychoanalyzed myself and figured it out. I used to go shooting with my mother and her friend, who she was cheating on my father with. Then after my parents got a divorce my mother abused my brother and I."
    "Whoa, I think I should take you to the range."
    "I just might do that, because I trust you."
    So, I'm going to take her and her boyfriend shooting. Right on.
    (it really warms my heart to be perceived as a "good gun nut".)

    Conversation two, I had a good chat with a well meaning, smart anti (as opposed to a dumb evil one like tom diaz). He conceeds that gun laws are ineffective and I explained why the '94 AWB is a joke. He laughed out loud about the "when was the last time you heard of a drive by bayonetting?" His main beef was the perception that the NRA is out of touch with the day to day going ons of compton, east oakland, and other places like that. Teaching gun safety to Mr. and Mrs. responsible gun owner (a catagory he lumps me under) is all well and good, but the people in the ghettos commiting crimes don't take gun safety classes. They use their pistols for nefarious ends. So he asked me what steps I would take to lower the murder rate in such places. We both agreed legalizing drugs would be a good first step, as the violent drug trade/gang violence is one of the main 'causes' of the high murder rate. Other than that we were both pretty baffled. Laws won't do jack, as there are enough handguns on the black market to continue to have gang warfare for a hundred years after they were completely banned. You can't really "legislate" away evil people. I guess you have to go do the dreaded "societal" causes of violence, aka why people turn to crime.

    What do you guys and gals think? How would you lower the murder rate in places like compton if you were emperor?

    atek3
     
  2. stealthmode

    stealthmode Member

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    i dont think drugs should be legal, that would be stupid. there are those i assume like you that probably think that by legalizing drugs that it would become cheaper and there would be less crime, but as the price gets cheaper then the use would go up, supply and demand. it would also bring in more users that did not use before creating more addicts or making occasional users into addicts. now you have an epidemic of drug addicts running around that cant do anything but try to get their next fix and will do anything to get it, so by legalizing i would think that there would be more social costs and an increase in crime in the long run.

    what drugs should be legalized. if you are talking about heroin, speed, crack and hard stuff like that then it would be stupid. i dont see a problem with pot, but then if it were legalized i would not become a user just because it was legalized. are you a pot head is that why you want it legalized?

    now i will get back to your main topic about gun crime in inner cities.

    my opinion is if these people would stop having babies, focus them on education, teach them right from wrong, be responsible parents, then that would help. if more carry concealed permits were in the hands of responsible people that live in those areas that might put the fear into these gang bangers that are commiting crime against the good honest hardworking people that are too unfortunate that they have to live in those conditions.

    as for you last question, if i were emperor then i would round the criminals up and humainly have them executed like the animals they are.
     
  3. crewchief

    crewchief Member

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    You have a point when it comes to the legalization of drugs, but I believe that it should be limited to marijuana and not stuff like coke, crack, meth, lsd, heroin and such. I feel though that the way to get in these criminals minds is not necessarily more police or anything but rather harsher punishment, like almost as harsh as an eye for an eye. Also get rid of parole as I feel their should be no time off for good behavior and stop it with these stupid in my mind life sentences. If your going to condemn a man to life in prison, which is suppose to be for rehabilitation and not long term storage, you might as well give him death. I mean you want to store him for life just so he can die all the while sucking up Tax dollars that can be used for such things as schools, poverty, job skills and placement and so on. Another thing is quite dilly daling around waiting to execute someone and do it. Now granted the appeals system can be good but also it is abused way to much in order to get enough time and the ability to find loopholes that the felon can escape through. Ya I know your all innocent:rolleyes: and I fart gold dust. If a criminal is found guilty of a crime that warrants the death penalty and they confess to the crime to begin with then as soon as he is sentenced take him in the back of the court house and put one in the head so we don't even have to waste time or the gas to take him to jail. Maybe public forms of punishment would be good also to show the rest what will happen so don't even consider it. My biggest thing though is how lite rapist and child molesters get off. A rapist will get sentenced to 7 years and maybe serve 3 then he gets out and does it again and they wonder why. Another thing to consider is the prison system and how they need to tighten things up inside those walls. Quit letting these guys get away with their thuggish ways while their in prison. Well those are just a few things for starters.
     
  4. artherd

    artherd member

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    Path to reduce crime:

    1) Reduce societal pressures that end up giving some little choice or little to loose. Bring more oppertunity to reward work with success. It's already pretty good here, but it could always get better.

    2) LOCK UP AND THROW AWAY THE KEY on those who turn to violence anyway despite living in one of the best damned countries in the world.

    Note that both of the above are basically another word for "Emphasize, heavily, Personal Responsability in Society."

    Look at Puff Daddy's "I AM THE AMERICAN DREAM" shirt. Anyone can make it here, anyone. You can start with $0.37 in your pocket, and be speaking broken english as a third-language. You can retire 10 years later a Billionare.
     
  5. Tom Bri

    Tom Bri Member

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    You could reduce crime by greatly increasing the number of guns in that area. Even in the worst town only a small percentage of people are violent criminals. Give everyone else more power to protect themselves and soon the violent ones are driven out, wise up, or become dead. Everyone should have a gun.

    As a stop-gap measure, legalising drugs would go a long way. You would have to legalise all drugs everywhere though, or you just move the problem around. Of course, anyone who commits a crime while under the influence would have to be put away.
     
  6. buy guns

    buy guns Member

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    exactly. if people are going to do drugs then they will do it. do you think they care if its against the law? i think legalizing weed would be a good first step since that is the easiest drug to profit from.


    want to reduce crime in compton? build a wall around the city and let them kill each other off. within a year there will be nobody left to commit crimes.
     
  7. Linux&Gun Guy

    Linux&Gun Guy Member

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    I think its interesting that newbies are quick to condem drug legalization. I think it may be because they have just come here and are strong republicans. After awhile they understand how the 2 parties are really the same. Interesting that you try a personal attack too.



    LSD is not addictive or harmfull as long as you have a spotter.
     
  8. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    silly me i sleep and miss the debate, Paging Mr. wolfman97. Paging Mr. wolfman97. :)

    Hey moderators, ignore the "personal attack" I'm enjoying this thread too much to be closed. :)

    atek3
     
  9. stealthmode

    stealthmode Member

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    Linux&Gun Guy you said i did a personal attack, you are wrong. i inquired if he is a pot head and to see if that is why he would like to personally see marijuana legalized.
     
  10. Warren

    Warren Member

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    buy guns opined:

    I used to work in Compton, there are a lot of good people there. Every time I hear this wall it off idea, even as a joke, it steams me up. :fire:
     
  11. Warren

    Warren Member

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    I want to see it, and all drugs legalized, because I am a freedom-head. I am opposed to the police state this country has become in the drive to prevent people from intoxicating themselves with the plant extract of their choice.


    I also support the rights of individuals to own fully automatic, pistol gripped, bayonet lugged black rifles with 30 round mags.

    Yeah, I know society would collapse if people had that much freedom. ;)
     
  12. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    How to lower the murder rates. Why, "Round up the usual suspects" of course.

    More seriously, legalize drugs. Take away their market and give it to Pzifer or other drug manufacturers. Make it cheap and over the counter when we do it though.

    Second, we know who the baddies are. Remove them and you reduce crime. Is that anything like rounding up the usual suspects?;)
     
  13. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Nope. There's already a surfeit of legislation on the books to deal with evil people. All that's needed is to enforce the laws already on the books.

    Legalizing drugs would be a good thing. Abolishing welfare would be a better thing. Meting out justice to criminals would be the single best thing we could do—which probably explains why we haven't done it.
     
  14. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    Really strong argument stealthmode, really strong. Goodness, like 70% of this board is for legalizing heroin, by your arguement this board must be a bunch of dope fiends.

    atek3
     
  15. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    Maybe. But that would quickly correct itself. Ever hear of 'survival of the fittest?' Don't allow the guvmint to offer any assisitance to these folks when they use drugs. The users need to take responsibility of themselves. The true die-hard addicts will just die off like the cancer they really are. We are already footing the bill for some of those folks now.

    GT
     
  16. Kim

    Kim Member

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    I have a problem with drug legalization. I really do not care if someone drinks themselves to death or shoots up heroin and kills themselves or decides they want to end their life with carbon monoxide or a bullet. However, as long as we have the welfare state and we all have to pay taxes to support the children and family these irresponsible people leave behind, I am aganist legalization. Get rid of the welfare state and I will be all for it. You can not have a libertarian utopia with a welfare state. I am a physician I I still do not buy into the idea the alcholism is a disease. Just wait and all "so called addictions "will be a disease and all people with these problem will get a disability check.( Can't help it I'm fat McDonalds made me do it) Stop the insanity------first!!!!! :(
     
  17. Warren

    Warren Member

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    Dr. Kim I'm with you on that.

    In order I would like to see the end of all gun laws, the end of the welfare state (for business and indivduals) followed by the end of the drug war.
     
  18. atek3

    atek3 Member

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  19. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    You wanna know what would really deter crime? A sentencing lottery. Whenever someone is convicted of a crime, their sentence is pulled randomly. While it is true that this won't stop violent crime (there really is no way to stop that, because the vast majority of violent crimes against people are emotive and therefore lacking rational thought), other, lesser forms of crime would drop off drastically. Think about it - do you think that a car thief would think twice about stealing someone's car if he knew that he just might get life in prison or the death sentence? You're dang right he would.

    Naturally this can never happen in this country because of the various due process violations, not to mention someone would start whining about the 8th Amendment cruel and unusual punishment stuff. Would it work? I believe so.

    As for inner city gang problems...yeah, you could look at the societal causes for crime (routine activities theory, strain theory, social conflict theory, social control theory, dozens more), but even if you could fix all of society's problems (impossible), you would still have violent crime. The drug trade is violent for the same reason that the prohibition era was violent - when you're already breaking a couple of laws to get your product out, what's one more? That said, marijuana should be legalized because it does not cause violent emotional problems. Cocaine and it's derivatives, opium and it's derivatives, methamphetamines - all of these cause drastic behavioral changes, not to mention the accompanying addiction to the drug. Much research shows that treatment is far better than punishment for drug users. So treat drug users . Punish severely the drug dealers . Decriminalizing marijuana would break the back of many drug cartels because of the very simple concept of profit. The reason that drugs are so expensive is BECAUSE they're illegal. Their expense does not keep people from buying drugs, but it does help the cartels make mucho dinero. How much would a bag of weed cost if any pot head could go into his back yard or closet and pick a bud to smoke instead of going to some shady dealer that has to protect his shipments coming in from Mexico with deadly force?

    Anyway, the gist of all this is to punish hashly the people that deserve it, rehabilitate (treat) people that need it, and leave everyone else the hell alone.

    You may wonder where the money for this will come from. Well, since the DEA will not have the excuse of busting marijuana dealers anymore, their budget can be cut by oh, 50% or so. They can sell off their machine guns to me at a discounted price to help get some more money. The helicopters they use to look for weed...sold. Along with the thermal equipment they use to spy on people's houses (you really think they care that SCOTUS said evidence gathered that way is not admissible in court? ha!). Control and tax marijuana just like alcohol. The possibilities are endless.

    I know this will anger several people on here, but it's my idea and I like it. Declare open season on any gang member seen committing a violent act or distributing drugs (other than pot). Once again, we run into due process issues...but a guy can dream.....
     
  20. stealthmode

    stealthmode Member

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    atek3


    for those who dont read the whole thread that is not my second quote but atecs way of making me see fault with my so called accusatory statement.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i inquired if he is a pot head and to see if that is why he would like to personally see marijuana legalized.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i inquired if he is a cop killer and to see if that is why he would like to personally see assault rifles with body armor piercing bullets legalized.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Really strong argument stealthmode, really strong. Goodness, like 70% of this board is for legalizing heroin, by your arguement this board must be a bunch of dope fiends.

    atek3
     
  21. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    Duh.
     
  22. Mark13

    Mark13 Member

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    Criminalizing drugs is a waste of money, resources and people. Have you ever heard of a drug user who couldn't get drugs? Have you ever heard of a criminal who couldn't get a gun?

    I think drugs are terrible. They contribute to the destruction of lives, and ruin childrens futures. But what has our "drug war" done to stop this except throw billions down the toilet?

    The only postive aspect of drug criminalization is that it keeps drug use non-public, and allows the govt to try to help some of the people they catch.

    Of course the flip side of this is higher crime to pay the artificially elevated drug prices, corrupted public officials, and bloody gang warfare over turf.

    I bought the "just say no" line of the 80's because I am a Republican, but our current drug policy is absurd. We need to make a change. I'm not advocating free narcotics for everyone, just that we could be doing this better.
     
  23. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    moderators, can you move this thread to legal, political, and inane.

    Thanks,
    atek3
     
  24. Bog

    Bog Member

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    Unfortunately, neither the US or the UK is set up, in any measure, to do anything but escalate violent crimes.

    Violent crimes, to my mind, can be roughly divided into two categories:

    Crimes of Fear.

    Crimes of Acquisition.

    Part of the time, a person will have force insitgated upon them because the force-using party is scared of the other person.

    Part of the time, a person will have force instigated upon them because they're in the way of something someone else wants.

    There are crimes of passion which turn violent - yes. There are crimes of hate which turn violent - yes.

    But the above two are the Major Problems, to my mind. Fear, in this case, is a societal thing. We're taught to fear $GROUP for whatever reason. This leads to violence, to Make the Bad Man Go 'Way.

    Acquisitive Violence is employed because the violator thinks they can get away with it, or their goal is so short-term that they don't bother thinking about what happens next.

    Thing is... how do you make people think? I honestly don't know. I don't know when I started becoming a Thinking Person rather than a Reacting Person. I couldn't describe the process.

    When I stopped Fearing people? Well, I still do, a bit. But I also learned that, by and large, people are just as frightened as I am. I'm only 30, I'm not smart about these things - but a little understand of other people's nature, coupled with the facility, in your hand, to equal any force that may be levied upon you... it's a place to start.
     
  25. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    I wonder what percentage of urban homicide are "criminal on criminal" and what percentage are "criminal on non-criminal" any ideas?

    atek3
     
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