Two LEO Disarmed and Taken Prisoner

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X-Rap

X-Rap

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This happened pretty close to home http://www.postindependent.com/news/15439774-113/wildlife-officer-wasnt-going-to-die-without-a-fight
This happened in one of the most desolate parts of the country and could have happened to anyone who crossed paths with these two IMO.
I don't want this to get locked down for cop bashing, it's not uncommon as a land owner, hunter, hiker, or cop to come upon vehicles parked or abandon and while the article isn't very specific it kind of appears that the Game Warden was doing a welfare check on the occupants of the SUV and the Deputy was in the area and came as back-up, take this situation and switch out the GW for your wife, girlfriend, kid or anyone of significance and you have a real bad situation.
There are some situations in which it's hard to see a good outcome, these guys were lucky.
 
Until the resident mods review this, and determine it s&t worthy, I offer the following.

From a S & T perspective we usually do not discuss Leo tactics here but in an attempt to make this more relevant to the mission of Thr in general and s&t in particular, what should a civilian ccw do in a similar situation on his own land?
1 If you stumble upon a vehechle on your land, do not investigate, Do not approach! Meth heads are unpredictable, dangerous and have nothing to lose.
2 If you can do so safely get the tag # of the vehicle and call it in.
3 Gather up loved ones and hunker down in a good, safe, defensable position until LE arrives.
4 If you are surprised by them, do you give up your weapon?

With this new direction perhaps this thread will stay open.
 
I hope I made it clear that the intent is not to scrutinize this as LEO critique. I want to transpose them with any citizen who may come on a truck in a remote area that may be frequented by outdoors enthusiasts.
I somewhat expected the company line on calling the cops and staying out of it but real life rarely fits in that neat little bundle.
There probably is no correct tactical answer but at least the discussion and awareness to the fact that there are some very bad folks out there and some are right smack in the middle of our workplace, playground, great outdoors.
I'd hate to think someone wouldn't stop for a daughter or wife on that lonely stretch of road but we must also be prepared for both who is stopping and who we are stopping for.
Help's a long ways away in some places no matter who you are and cell phone coverage isn't everywhere yet.
 
X-rap, sorry if I misunderstood your intent, the topics of civilian situational awareness, weapon retention and not being a victim are always good s&t topics.

Im not giving up my weapon but I am more interested in what level of situational awareness would help me avoid the situation all together.
 
I live smack dab in the middle of Wyoming. It's a matter of minset. An abandoned vehicle in a remote area is almost always an indication of someone needing help. Lost, broken down, medical emergency, etc. I would imagine the game warden thought he was looking for people who needed help. Some one else can take it from there.
 
That's one of the unpredictable dangers of law enforcement. You never know what is going to happen when you approach a vehicle. The game wardens around my neck of the woods are polite and armed to the teeth (sidearm, shotgun, AR-15). Typically they will have a sidearm and a shotgun if something looks suspicious. Backup is miles/hours away.

I agree for civilians to not approach the vehicle. It is a situation that is easily avoided by not approaching. Better to let the guys who do it for a living check it out. If its a vehicle on the side of a rural road I usually call it in when I get to cell range. I have seen too many Doomsday Prepper episodes where they guy gets ambushed trying to help. Sadly its just not as safe as it used to be to assist vehicles/motorists.
 
If you live in meth making country (which seems to be most of rural America these days), you need to be very aware of stumbling across a meth cooking operation, the remnants of a meth lab and especially aware of dealing with the people who make and use the stuff.

Many home brew meth formulas require the use of very dangerous chemicals. A popular method in this area uses anhydrous ammonia because it's relatively easy to get as it's widely used in agriculture here. Several years ago I handled a case where a man out rabbit hunting stumbled onto the remains of a meth lab. He picked up a stainless steel thermos bottle and took it home. He got home, opened it and burned his lungs with a good whiff of anhydrous ammonia which had been in the bottle. The thing about it was he knew he had stumbled across a meth lab before he picked the bottle up. Stupid.....

Meth use will induce a paranoia in the user and they will see anyone and everyone as an agent of the law, a snitch or someone who wants to steal their stash. They often keep weapons handy, everything from improvised striking and stabbing weapons to the nicest firearms you can think of and they don't hesitate to use them.

If you suspect you have stumbled across the remnants of a lab, an actual working lab using one of the various methods or the people involved in the use and production of meth, disengage and get away. They are dangerous and often they carry a working lab with them in their vehicles.
 
I agree on giving a wide berth to the meth heads as well as obvious criminal activity, if I drive past the neighbors place or some remote cow camp and see unfamiliar vehicles or people I'm driving right by and calling the owner or the law.
Where things get complicated is when your having down a muddy 2 track and come to a gate that is blocked by another truck or one that is stuck.
not so easy to avoid contact then, another frightening situation would be having a pair like this show up at your camp or cabin.
One can't go around brandishing their gun and I don't know if these encounters are on the rise but for those of us who like the wide open spaces it's worth contemplating.
 
The article you linked doesn't state it, but I'm assuming that the officers involved were in uniform when the incident occurred. That is going to change the dynamics of an encounter like that.

The wildlife officer followed tracks from the vehicle to the couple. I doubt that this would have been standard procedure, the vehicle could have been left by a legitimate hunter, hiker or other person enjoying the outdoors.

The pair were wanted in Wasatch County, Utah, on charges of burglary, theft and forgery, according to court records.
Click to expand...

This most likely explains why he followed the tracks and the deputy was on the way to back him up. He most likely got a hit on the plates when he ran them after encountering the vehicle.

This is information a private citizen wouldn't have and anyone you encountered would have less reason to suspect you were there to arrest them.

The fact that these were uniformed officers really changes the dynamic of the situation. A private citizen encountering a strange truck at a gate or stuck in the mud wouldn't likely trigger the same response in a couple like that. That would most likely make it easier to disengage.

If someone is planning to ambush you out in the middle of no where there isn't a lot you can do once the ambush is sprung. The key is avoidance.
 
Stories like the one linked below are getting more and more common. It isn't just vehicles in remote places that it's necessary to be cautious about - it's pretty much anything that is out of place anywhere, given the ongoing threats (even if seemingly remote) we face these days.

It may sound trite, and it may be trite, but ... if you see something, say something. Curiosity kills more than cats.
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http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2015/03...nd-in-Indiana-Walmart-bathroom/3331426251543/

Active meth lab found in Indiana Walmart bathroom

Police said the bathrooms at the Muncie Walmart would have to be decontaminated after the backpack containing the meth lab was removed from the store.

By Ben Hooper Contact the Author | March 13, 2015 at 9:22 AM
 
Jeff White said:
The article you linked doesn't state it, but I'm assuming that the officers involved were in uniform when the incident occurred. That is going to change the dynamics of an encounter like that.

The wildlife officer followed tracks from the vehicle to the couple. I doubt that this would have been standard procedure, the vehicle could have been left by a legitimate hunter, hiker or other person enjoying the outdoors.



This most likely explains why he followed the tracks and the deputy was on the way to back him up. He most likely got a hit on the plates when he ran them after encountering the vehicle.

This is information a private citizen wouldn't have and anyone you encountered would have less reason to suspect you were there to arrest them.

The fact that these were uniformed officers really changes the dynamic of the situation. A private citizen encountering a strange truck at a gate or stuck in the mud wouldn't likely trigger the same response in a couple like that. That would most likely make it easier to disengage.

If someone is planning to ambush you out in the middle of no where there isn't a lot you can do once the ambush is sprung. The key is avoidance.
Click to expand...
If he got a hit on the plates then he should have been gun drawn and with the other deputy.

I guess the only points I can make since none of us were there is: #1, if you think there may be danger act sooner than later, draw gun or retreat, do something sooner.

#2 fight before they execute you, some chance is better than no chance as demonstrated here by the wildlife officer.
 
Post #8

...contains some very, very important advice.

Posted by Jeff White:
If you live in meth making country (which seems to be most of rural America these days), you need to be very aware of stumbling across a meth cooking operation, the remnants of a meth lab and especially aware of dealing with the people who make and use the stuff.
Click to expand...
To which I would insert after "live", "hike, camp, bicycle, hunt, or fish".

Many home brew meth formulas require the use of very dangerous chemicals. A popular method in this area uses anhydrous ammonia because it's relatively easy to get as it's widely used in agriculture here.
Click to expand...
Yep, and if you see anyone loping suspicious around a farm, be very careful.

Meth use will induce a paranoia in the user and they will see anyone and everyone as an agent of the law, a snitch or someone who wants to steal their stash. They often keep weapons handy, everything from improvised striking and stabbing weapons to the nicest firearms you can think of and they don't hesitate to use them.
Click to expand...
Read that slowly a second time.
 
Stay alert, stay alive ....

This article shows that if you are a armed professional you can never be to cautious or careful, :uhoh: .
Transients & vagrants can pop up almost anywhere.
Doing security work, I've had several people, both intoxicated & sometimes homeless hiding in desolate areas or hiding in places you'd never think you'd see or find anyone.
About 6 years ago, a security guard in my city was on a regular patrol of his post, a large apt complex. A violent subject lunged out at him from a out of service building. They fought & the security officer used a small knife to stab the felon repeatedly. The guard lived but the attacker died at the scene.

In terms of strange cars or abandoned vehicles, Id be leery of that too. I've caught jealous ex-boyfriends, stalkers, etc that way. :uhoh:

I agree too not to surrender your sidearm or weapon under any terms. You will make matters worse by giving a loaded firearm to a violent felon.
I've spoken directly to sworn LE officers who were in hostage events or critical incidents where a subject snatched or stole a officer's weapon. One federal VA(Veterans Affairs) officer I worked with was taken hostage by a armed veteran who went off his medication. The VA police officer was able to calm the veteran down & put him in restraints. He told me having the gun pressed up to his neck was terrifying but his training & mindset let him deal with it.
 
Hmmm...

ANY area where drug producing, deals, or use is going on is a DANGEROUS area. Users are in an altered state of mind where their normal thought processes, emotions, reasoning, and inhibitions are thoroughly screwed up. Dealers are in a state of mind not to be discovered or caught, or to lose money or drugs.

What this means is ANYONE associated with drugs are not good people to be around with any expectation of safety.

First rule of safety is not to put yourself in an unsafe position in the first place.


That said, not every situation where one stumbles upon some vehicle somewhere, or other situation out in the boonies, automatically means "drug people". But it DOES mean you need to be smart about any potential encounter.

Avoid any confrontation, take note of what there is to see, communicate with the outside world if possible, and always place your own safety paramount.
 
WOW! I've worked up there. Desolate? You bet. We found an old plane crash out that way once. We are frequently warned about meth labs as well as poachers and possible (archaeological site) looters. The general SOP if we see what appears to the a recently abandoned vehicle, camp site, obvious lab, etc., is do not approach, record the location, un-ass the area, and contact the local law enforcement/controlling agency at our earliest possible opportunity (cell coverage is really spotty out there). Good to read that those guys made out alive.
 
Very interesting thread, and also very good advice about caution/avoidance around what might otherwise be considered littering sites found in out of the way places.

I live in a very rural county. I'm a landowner/farmer myself. Unfortunately it's not too uncommon to see the results of both township road littering slobs and the ditching sites of meth lab production stuff. They don't usually occur in the same places. Township road slobs are just that, slobs who dump their old couches, mattresses or whatever into your road ditch because it's easier than taking it all the way to the county landfill. We grudgingly pick up after them. :cuss:

Unwanted refuse off the road, in your woods, along the edge of a slough or in some off the beaten track is much more suspicious and ought to be approached carefully, especially if you see the likes of rusty 20# propane bottles and such. Meth cookers like to steal anhydrous ammonia (a commonly used fertilizer) from us and transport it in old propane tanks. Trouble is anhydrous doesn't play nice with the brass valves on the tanks, creating unintended bombs.

Still, it's hard for me to ignore something that I know is out of place on my place. I know what belongs where. I know the difference between a game trail and one made by some ner do well through the CRP. I usually investigate before calling... but cautiously. :uhoh:
 
Wow, excellent eye-opening discussion and becoming more relevant every day. Thank you gentlemen. This is very pertinent to me on a few levels.

I live in a somewhat rural area. I also maintain a privately owned small GA airport in the area and it's quite isolated. Even though the property is fenced I do an early morning perimeter check for breeches in the fence made by wildlife and occasionally, in years past, people that like to sneak onto the runway for late night partying and even drag racing. I have on several occasions come upon vehicles on and off the property, sometimes temporarily abandonded, sometimes occupied.

Though I'm usually vigilant, and situationally aware I confess to defaulting to the idea of kids, lovers, partyers and the ignorant. I truly am out of touch with the mobile meth lab idea. I will hereafter approach that situation much more alert, or rather, will NOT approach the vehicles without serious accessing what's going on, or most likely, calling LEOs and letting them do the investigation.

That's why I read these pages.
 
Eric Fren, signal devices.....

To keep a few signal/LED lights, signal markers or flares(depending on wildfire/fire safety conditions) with you in rural areas is smart.
If you have a traffic accident or use of force incident, the local PD or state troopers/S&R units could quickly find your location.

The recent manhunt & capture of dangerous fugitive Eric Fren(check correct spelling) in rural central PA showed how you can't be too careful or cautious in the woods/trails.
Frein reportedly cached weapons & gear in hidden spots, :uhoh: . He also set up booby traps and elaborate snares to maim/injure any trackers-posse.
The fugitive was caught hiding in a county airport by a few SOG/USMS deputy US marshals.

Rusty
 
Seanpcola remarked,

Wow, excellent eye-opening discussion and becoming more relevant every day. Thank you gentlemen.
Click to expand...

It's an eye-opener for me, too, and I second the thanks for keeping this thread open. I'm more used to the "street" ne'er-do-wells, but I found it amazing that meth labs can be contained in backpacks and Wal-Mart bathrooms. Incredible.

Terry
 
We've been pretty lucky in regards to thefts at the airport. All aircraft are in enclosed hangars, none tied down outside. Only thing stolen from there in 18 years was an engine stolen off an airframe that was involved in a fatal crash. I absolutely know who did it, told the investigators but never could catch the low life. But, he knows I know.

As to smuggling operations, only way it could happen there would be in daylight hours and in plain sight. We have no runway lights, it's a fairly small grass strip so no night time operations likely. This area has dozens of open fields, lots of people have isolated strips at their homes or farms and in daylight hours there is always someone at my airport. Not saying it's impossible but my place would be the last one I would use if I was trying to move something illegal by air.

Yep 230RN, I just didn't realize how prevalent math labs were and the viability of such small operations.
 
230RN said:
Seanpcola remarked,



It's an eye-opener for me, too, and I second the thanks for keeping this thread open. I'm more used to the "street" ne'er-do-wells, but I found it amazing that meth labs can be contained in backpacks and Wal-Mart bathrooms. Incredible.

Terry
Click to expand...

Me three!

Having grown up in an urban area, I was familiar with street situations and more or less thought of rural areas as safer and peaceful. I hunt in a rural area where part of my family is from. A few years back, two of us encountered a strung-out meth head in a small diner where we traditionally stop for dinner.

The guy was pretty messed up, talked crazy and seemed oblivious to his very bad personal hygiene. I thought he was mentally deficient or a closed-head injury/accident victim. Didn't realize the guy was a meth head until recounting the story to another relative who still lives in the area.

Never realized how pervasive the meth problem is in parts of rural MI or how it affects those who use it, but that one encounter was enough. That guy was totally out of his mind and capable of anything. Wouldn't want to come across someone like that in a secluded place and unarmed.

This has been a very informative thread. Thx to all.
 
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