U.S. appeals court: Constitution gives right to carry gun in public

Status
Not open for further replies.
IIRC, given that this ruling came down in the 9th, that means any state represented by the 9th Circuit is now a permitless open carry state, yes? ...

No. This only binds the State of Hawaii with respect to the specific subject matter of the litigation. But if the decision stands it can be cited in other Ninth Circuit States in challenges to laws in those States.

Having only read the specialist press copy on this, I would love to presume that this is the result of a common sense, srict interpretation read of the Constitution....

I urge you to read the opinion (linked in post 3). It's a good opinion, written by Judge O'Scannlain who wrote the first Peruta opinion. That was also an excellent opinion which tracked well with Heller. It was vacated when the case was heard en banc, and the final opinion was unsatisfactory for us.

....The interesting thing about the reversal is that the Ninth Circuit is totally behind restrictions on CONCEALED carry yet holds that OPEN carry has to be allowed. Imagine the havoc this is going to stir up....

That's pretty much happenstance.

The original Peruta opinion (linked to above) written by O'Scannlain was supportive of conceal carry and would hav effectively forced California to go from "may issue" to "shall issue." The en banc decision in Peruta essentially held that there was no right to carry a gun concealed in public.

That pretty much forced O'Scannlain to go with open carry in Young.
 
IIRC, given that this ruling came down in the 9th, that means any state represented by the 9th Circuit is now a permitless open carry state, yes? Kind of an oxy-moron as most states, CA and Hawaii as the exception already allow permitless open carry.

I don't see why it would matter if the 9th Circuit in an en bloc decision would want to strike this down because only two states would really be affected by this and the potential of them striking it down means it could go to SCOTUS where it would most likely be upheld and become a national decision. Thus you go from risking two states in California and Hawaii to other handgun carry restrictive states like Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc. having to basically legalize permitless open carry. Can you imagine someone walking down Mulberry St in Little Italy or Chinatown with a six shooter on the hip?

That's something no Anti wants and that's a very possible outcome as I don't see how SCOTUS would turn down hearing this on appeal given that we will likely have Ka... Kava... Justice Avada Kedavra on the bench. Hell, having Brett be there would be a literal killing curse on the hopes and dreams of Anti's all over the country on that kind of ruling.

This has actually become the most interesting gun case we've seen since Heller because its implications are vast. If open carry goes permitless in every state and blood is not running in the streets, then there's no reason not to make concealed carry the same in individual states through state legislatures. Of course the argument there will be the same straw man of "peace officer safety", but that's been debunked as what criminal is gonna tell a cop he's carrying a gun?

Interesting.

Personally I’m not a fan of open carry. I don’t like it as it makes one an easier target. That said, I applaud anyone who open carries as they’re exercising their rights and I fully support them.

In an ideal world Constitutional Carry would be the law of the land and hopefully we’ll get there in the next few years,

The problem to me is in training and understanding of the laws. The one good thing the permit process does is force people to get educated on the law. Yes, it’s not perfect and many forget quickly, but learning the real responsibilities and obligations of exercising our rights is important.

So I hope that if we’re back on the path to more actual “sane” gun laws such as national reciprocity and maybe even Constitutional Carry that each and every one of us become advocates for training and education as the last thing we need are fools trying to use stand your ground and castle doctrine to claim self defense when they’re guilty of man slaughter or worse.

Given the choice I’ll always side with freedom, but I do see the value of education and advocacy to help protect that freedom.

So I guess the next few years will be interesting.
 
I just read a lot of the opinion. Bear in mind that I am not being paid to look at it, so my level of effort is not going to be that great.

It seems like the lower court begged for this. In fact, the impression I get is that the judge had no respect for this plaintiff and did her best to turf his case into oblivion, using frivolous conclusions. How unusual for a judge. Not.

The lower court judge is one Helen Gillmor. Schooled in New York and Boston. Clinton appointee. It appears that her record was undistinguished prior to her appointment. She was a PD and worked as a part-time judge in family court. Family law is not a field that draws Borks and Cardozos. It's pretty simple stuff, like insurance defense.

EDIT: she apparently did part-time work as a state district judge. Not that this indicates that she is bright or even of normal intelligence.

She said the Second Amendment didn't give people the right to carry outside the home, so it didn't cover the plaintiff's beef. That was stupid. The text says "keep and bear," which is 18th-Century for "own and carry." She was asking to be slapped down.

The appellate opinion describes some of Hawaii's gun laws, and it's horrifying. Apparently, you can't have a gun in your vehicle in Hawaii! Not until today, anyway. So much for Magnum P.I. and his trusty 1911. You can't transport a gun unless going to gun range, going to gunsmith, yada yada yada. Basically, Hawaii says people in cars are not allowed to defend themselves.

Judge Ratched also held that the suit against the state (one of the defendants) was barred by sovereign immunity. This is a limited immunity enjoyed by government bodies and personnel. It is not something I have dealt with a lot, but the basic idea is that certain lawsuits are barred in order to prevent nuts from crippling the government with litigation and to keep them from punishing government employees for doing their jobs. It seems bizarre to apply it here, since there are all sorts of exceptions to it.

If the cops give you a beating, for example, you can file for relief under 42 U.S. Code § 1983, which allows people to sue when the government deprives them of their rights. The plaintiff in the Young case sued under this statute, so one wonders what the judge was thinking. She (her clerks, really) researched the case, and I have not, so maybe she knows something I don't, but it smells bad.

I shouldn't sell myself short. The appellate court agrees with me.

The interesting thing about the reversal is that the Ninth Circuit is totally behind restrictions on CONCEALED carry yet holds that OPEN carry has to be allowed. Imagine the havoc this is going to stir up. Open carry is like Nazism to liberals.

The court goes into a discussion of the meaning of the terms "keep" and "bear," as I did above, and they come to the same (unavoidable) conclusion I did. "Bear" means nothing if you can only "bear" inside your house. They cite these words from Wrenn v. D.C.: "After all, the Amendment’s core lawful purpose is self-defense, and the need for that might arise beyond as well as within the home."

DUH.

Following this, there is a very long and boring study of the history of gun laws, and it ends with an affirmation: the right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right not tied to membership in a militia. They cite the Heller case to this effect. This short-circuits a cloud of cases that incorrectly invoke the militia thing, and the court discounts them. Buh-BYE.

There are a couple of confusing paragraphs about cases limiting carry (not necessarily concealed), but it's not all that important to understand the badly written text, because at the end, the court refuses to follow these cases.

Unbelievably, the court then goes into a discussion of post-Civil-War laws intended to take guns away from freed slaves. I feel like I'm dreaming. Is this really the Ninth Circuit? Are they really comparing gun control to slavery? Pinch me! The conclusion, based on the freedmen-related cases is this: 2A must provide a right to OPENLY CARRY.

This is where I fainted for a minute.

Take a look: "The right to bear arms must include, at the least, the right to carry a firearm openly for self-defense."

In HAWAII, mind you.

After this, there is a long section pimp-slapping the dissenter. I didn't read it. Tedious and not all that important, since the majority ruling is now the law. The majority judges were just trying to poison the well and make the dissenter look stupid.

Now I'll mention a few things we should consider.

One of the majority judges was a guy with a huge Gaelic-looking name. He is a Reagan appointee. He appears to be conservative. He has made trouble for gun-grabbers before.

The other majority judge was one Sandra Ikuta. I don't see a lot of information about her on the web, but she was appointed by Bush II, and the L.A. Times was sufficiently disturbed to include her in an article on the conservative "threat" to the Ninth Circuit.

The dissenter (spit) is one Richard Clifton, also a Bush II appointee.

It's important to know where the judges came from, because with an issue like this, it pretty much tells us what they'll decide. A Clinton appointee screwed this case up. A Reagan appointee and a Bush II appointee fixed it.

This illustrates a point most voters are too stupid to understand: when you vote for a president, you are voting for every federal judge appointed during his term, and those judges decide what the law means. If the local district court tells you the RICO Act bars eating Cheez Doodles on Yom Kippur, that's what it means, until the case is appealed. It's extremely important to vote for presidents who basically agree with your view, EVEN IF THEY HAVE ORANGE HAIR AND MADE FUN OF YOUR CANDIDATE DURING DEBATES.

This case shows that voting intelligently can make a difference even on the Ninth Circuit, which is generally considered to be hopelessly biased.

Will the case survive in its current form? Too early to say, but it looks great right now.

If I'm wrong about any of this, pay me a huge fee, and I'll do real research and correct myself.
Lucid and enlightening. I appreciate it.
 
I don't see why it would matter if the 9th Circuit in an en bloc decision would want to strike this down because only two states would really be affected by this and the potential of them striking it down means it could go to SCOTUS where it would most likely be upheld and become a national decision. Thus you go from risking two states in California and Hawaii to other handgun carry restrictive states like Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc. having to basically legalize permitless open carry. Can you imagine someone walking down Mulberry St in Little Italy or Chinatown with a six shooter on the hip?

The Ninth Circuit includes a whole bunch of states.
 
I don't know if this will interest anyone, but the Ninth Circuit apparently records oral argument. I am posting a Youtube video.

When you pursue a case before an appellate court, you send in a bunch of documents for the courts to ignore...I mean have their clerks read for them...I mean review...and then after a certain period of time, they invite you to a hearing in which you answer questions from the judges. Many of you will remember this from the Gore/Bush mess. This is the process you will see in the posted video. May be boring if you're not a lawyer.

 
Judge Ikuta got the County's attorney to admit that in order for him to win the court would need to hold that the 2A does not protect the right to self defense outside the home. It also appears, based on the Young oral argument, that there are no published court opinions holding that there is no 2A right to carry firearms outside of the home. So if the en banc court vacates the 3 judge panel, the 2A self defense outside the home issue would be teed up nicely for the supreme court. I'm curious to see what the parties and the 9th Cir decide to do.
 
stevehgraham, thank you for posting the video. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Love the comments from the judges starting 14:22 minute mark of video:

Judges: Reasonable law abiding person is completely prevented/banned [from open carry] ... So essentially only the security guard can open carry outside of home for self defense and protection of life and property (and concealed carry permit issue is nonexistent).

Response: ... um, um

Judge: Do we know how many permits have been issued?

Response: I do not believe any permit has been issued. :(

Judges "own" the argument with these comments: Typical law abiding citizen ... has the RIGHT under the Second Amendment ... if Second Amendment only extends to security guard, we have a real constitutional problem here.:rofl: Are you saying Second Amendment does not apply outside of home?

Response: um, um ... yes, I believe so. :eek:


I tell you, my morning coffee is tasting much better these days. :D
 
Last edited:
Love the comments from the judges starting 14:22 minute mark of video:

Judges: Reasonable law abiding person is completely prevented/banned [from open carry] ... So essentially only the security guard can open carry outside of home for self defense and protection of life and property (and concealed carry permit issue is nonexistent).

Response: ... um, um

Judge: Do we know how many permits have been issued?

Response: I do not believe any permit has been issued. :(

Judges "own" the argument with these comments: Typical law abiding citizen ... has the RIGHT under the Second Amendment ... if Second Amendment only extends to security guard, we have a real constitutional problem here.:rofl: Are you saying Second Amendment does not apply outside of home?

Response: um, um ... yes, I believe so. :eek:

Imagine the scenario with a typical 9th Circuit panel.

Judges: Reasonable law abiding person is completely prevented/banned [from open carry] ... So essentially only the security guard can open carry outside of home for self defense and protection of life and property (and concealed carry permit issue is nonexistent).

Response: That's right.

Judges: Okay, then.
 
Thanks for posting the video. It was great watching it and knowing "how the book ended." The next step is to see how this actually gets applied over the next few years.

Like others, I am no great fan of open carry; but I can see this leading to concealed carry permits being more obtainable to people who are not otherwise prohibited (I disliked the use of the word "disabled;" but I realize it was a slip and did not enter the written document). It will be interesting to follow.
 
Interesting.

The problem to me is in training and understanding of the laws. The one good thing the permit process does is force people to get educated on the law. Yes, it’s not perfect and many forget quickly, but learning the real responsibilities and obligations of exercising our rights is important.

.
There’s a simple fix. Mandate that be a course in high school. A whole semister, one period a day senior year. Actual range shooting would be too big of hassle. But laws and Regs, safety training, tactical theories and stuff, general firearm knowledge like cleaning and maintenance. You could easily design a very good course.
 
There’s a simple fix. Mandate that be a course in high school. A whole semister, one period a day senior year. Actual range shooting would be too big of hassle. But laws and Regs, safety training, tactical theories and stuff, general firearm knowledge like cleaning and maintenance. You could easily design a very good course.

It's funny; teachers are all for teaching kids how to perform immoral and even deviant sex acts that lead to terrible problems, yet it's hard to drum up any support for firearms training. Leftists will send people out to teach heroin addicts to shoot up "safely," but they don't want to teach kids how to exercise their constitutional rights correctly.
 
Let's see if Hawaii requests reconsideration and what comes out of that before cheering or jeering. As it is, this is too early in the process for laymen to be predicting what will happen next or the final outcome.

It would be nice to have this thread - or one based on the actual text of the ruling, it's on the 9th Circuit's website - posted in the legal forum to let the attorneys explain what this decision means, what can happen next and what that means.
 
There’s a simple fix. Mandate that be a course in high school. A whole semister, one period a day senior year. Actual range shooting would be too big of hassle. But laws and Regs, safety training, tactical theories and stuff, general firearm knowledge like cleaning and maintenance. You could easily design a very good course.

It will never happen.
Academics are mostly anti gun
Add that class requirements are almost impossible to change and getting something like this would be brutal, it would require a ton of money and support. I don’t have the time or money to even get it started, let alone going. But I do love the idea.
 
A great quote from the opinion, it is footnote 9, decimating the dissent's argument that bearing arms is somehow tied to the slavery culture:
The dissent faults our reliance on decisions from the South,
implying that the thorough analysis found in such opinions must have
been the product of a “culture where slavery, honor, violence, and the
public carrying of weapons were intertwined.” Dissent at 6 (citations and
quotations omitted). To say the least, we are puzzled. The dissent
overlooks the fact that the Southern cases on which we rely only arose
because the legislatures in those states had enacted restrictions on the
public carry of firearms. Indeed, were it the case that the Southern culture
of slavery animated concerns to protect the right to open carry, why
would the Georgia legislature have sought to ban open carry in the first
place?
 
Well, the story has since made the mainstream media (indeed, my local paper, the Seattle Times had much to say) including MSN.

The other side doesn't seem worried a bit, all noting Peruta ... consensus on both sides is it'll go en banc and suffer the same fate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It will never happen.
Academics are mostly anti gun
Add that class requirements are almost impossible to change and getting something like this would be brutal, it would require a ton of money and support. I don’t have the time or money to even get it started, let alone going. But I do love the idea.
You can’t put a price on a child’s life. Play their emotions like the left does. Just imagine how many accidents we may prevent if they taught 30 minutes a week of gun safety to K-5 kids. Each school hire firearms instructors that are combat Veterans based on their school size 1-X. they could probably double as security so we don’t worry about some weener not doing their job in an attack. Have them teach the older kids daily and pop in once a week or so to do a segment for the younger kids. We kill lots of birds with one stone.
 
Let's see if Hawaii requests reconsideration and what comes out of that before cheering or jeering. As it is, this is too early in the process for laymen to be predicting what will happen next or the final outcome.

It would be nice to have this thread - or one based on the actual text of the ruling, it's on the 9th Circuit's website - posted in the legal forum to let the attorneys explain what this decision means, what can happen next and what that means.

I'm an attorney, but I'm honest enough to point out that you will not get quality legal analysis from me unless you pay dearly for it. That's true of any lawyer. It's dishonest to deny it.

If I were being paid to work on a case like this, I would spend days researching it, and I would be sure I was not dealing with a subject outside my field. You're better off waiting for articles from attorneys who write about this stuff for a living. Otherwise, you may end up listening to careless bottom-tier types who do things like insurance defense or $75 traffic court appearances.

I spent about 20 minutes trying to provide a basic understanding of the court's opinion, but I'm not a gun law expert, if such a person even exists! The only "gun attorney" I know is on a work farm right now, doing 10 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RPZ
Do we really need to be teaching gun safety to kids in school? The rate of deaths and injuries from gun accidents continues to decline. It would seem to be a solution to a problem that is less and less of a problem. This is something that parents should do. There is already too much non-academic stuff being taught in schools.
 
Do we really need to be teaching gun safety to kids in school? The rate of deaths and injuries from gun accidents continues to decline. It would seem to be a solution to a problem that is less and less of a problem. This is something that parents should do. There is already too much non-academic stuff being taught in schools.
I’d argue if we reversed the stigmatism of guns in public or got constitutional carry it would be necessassary. A high percentage of the public doesn’t own guns, their children need to know about the safe handling of guns.

I keep hearing over and over about locking up your guns. The real answer is teach the kids not to jack with them. My almost 3 year old claims every gun he sees for me. He says, “dada’s shoot gun not a toy” I’m sure most of you have children like that, but the people not posting on gun forums have kids that haven’t seen a gun and most likely will be curious about them.
 
I’d argue if we reversed the stigmatism of guns in public or got constitutional carry it would be necessassary. A high percentage of the public doesn’t own guns, their children need to know about the safe handling of guns.

I keep hearing over and over about locking up your guns. The real answer is teach the kids not to jack with them. My almost 3 year old claims every gun he sees for me. He says, “dada’s shoot gun not a toy” I’m sure most of you have children like that, but the people not posting on gun forums have kids that haven’t seen a gun and most likely will be curious about them.
Your suggestion reeks of political indoctrination as opposed to education. We need to get the schools to engage in less political indoctrination not more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RPZ
stevehgraham wrote:
I'm an attorney, but I'm honest enough to point out that you will not get quality legal analysis from me unless you pay dearly for it.

Not looking for an analysis of the case, but what the next steps are. Does Hawaii ask for a reconsideration of the original 3-judge panel? Do they ask for a hearing of the entire 9th Circuit? Are these automatic? What happens if Hawaii just stops the litigation now? I would expect any attorney to be able to answer such procedural questions off the cuff in the same way that I would expect an accountant to be able to explain whether an expenditure is an expense or capital investment or an engineer would be able to explain shearing stresses and bending moments.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top