U.S. reverses stance on treaty to regulate arms trade

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DeepSouth

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I got this in an email yesterday and was wondering if anybody had any other info about it, I'm generally skeptical about anything I get in an email. Anyway, I was wondering if anybody else had more info on this one, I can't seem to find anything.


http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE59E0Q920091015


U.S. reverses stance on treaty to regulate arms trade

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States reversed policy on Wednesday and said it would back launching talks on a treaty to regulate arms sales as long as the talks operated by consensus, a stance critics said gave every nation a veto.

The decision, announced in a statement released by the U.S. State Department, overturns the position of former President George W. Bush's administration, which had opposed such a treaty on the grounds that national controls were better.
 
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The article:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States reversed policy on Wednesday and said it would back launching talks on a treaty to regulate arms sales as long as the talks operated by consensus, a stance critics said gave every nation a veto.

The decision, announced in a statement released by the U.S. State Department, overturns the position of former President George W. Bush's administration, which had opposed such a treaty on the grounds that national controls were better.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the United States would support the talks as long as the negotiating forum, the so-called Conference on the Arms Trade Treaty, "operates under the rules of consensus decision-making."

"Consensus is needed to ensure the widest possible support for the Treaty and to avoid loopholes in the Treaty that can be exploited by those wishing to export arms irresponsibly," Clinton said in a written statement.

While praising the Obama administration's decision to overturn the Bush-era policy and to proceed with negotiations to regulate conventional arms sales, some groups criticized the U.S. insistence that decisions on the treaty be unanimous.

"The shift in position by the world's biggest arms exporter is a major breakthrough in launching formal negotiations at the United Nations in order to prevent irresponsible arms transfers," Amnesty International and Oxfam International said in a joint statement.

However, they said insisting that decisions on the treaty be made by consensus "could fatally weaken a final deal."

"Governments must resist US demands to give any single state the power to veto the treaty as this could hold the process hostage during the course of negotiations. We call on all governments to reject such a veto clause," said Oxfam International's policy adviser Debbie Hillier.

The proposed legally binding treaty would tighten regulation of, and set international standards for, the import, export and transfer of conventional weapons.

Supporters say it would give worldwide coverage to close gaps in existing regional and national arms export control systems that allow weapons to pass onto the illicit market.

Nations would remain in charge of their arms export control arrangements but would be legally obliged to assess each export against criteria agreed under the treaty. Governments would have to authorize transfers in writing and in advance.

The main opponent of the treaty in the past was the U.S. Bush administration, which said national controls were better. Last year, the United States accounted for more than two-thirds of some $55.2 billion in global arms transfer deals.

Arms exporters China, Russia and Israel abstained last year in a U.N. vote on the issue.

The proposed treaty is opposed by conservative U.S. think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, which said last month that it would not restrict the access of "dictators and terrorists" to arms but would be used to reduce the ability of democracies such as Israel to defend their people.

The U.S. lobbying group the National Rifle Association has also opposed the treaty.

A resolution before the U.N. General Assembly is sponsored by seven nations including major arms exporter Britain. It calls for preparatory meetings in 2010 and 2011 for a conference to negotiate a treaty in 2012.
 
No surprise. Basically we have a country club that includes repressive dictators that wants elusive rights to arms. Under this treaty there might not have been an American revolution.
 
There has been speculation that these treaties would be used to control internal, US-specific, small arms and ammunition sales. That's just speculation, since there is no treaty language on the table yet from this group that would support such a conclusion. I doubt that such things can easily come to pass, and certainly not without some pretty dramatic lead-in.

We *should* remember than IANSA is the sworn enemy of the RKBA, and we should do everything that we can to remind our leaders that we will not accept a loss of the RKBA as a function of pacifying foreign interests.

We should also be mindful that these sorts of treaties have the ability to significantly perturb the flow of foreign imports (from Saigas and cheap commerical ammo to mil-surp ammo) into the US. If you have any interest in any non-US manufactured ammunition and/or firearms, I would suggest that you let your CongressCritters know of your concerns.
 
This should actually make for an interesting constitutional fight should any such treaties try to infringe on 2nd amendment rights. Pending incorporation, you'll have a arguable conflict between a 2nd amendment right and a treaty obligation. I believe that constitutional rights would trump in that situation.

As for imports, I don't think a constitutional right guarantees the right to have foreign guns imported, as their are broader executive branch issues at work when dealing with foreign powers. That would be a legislative/executive issue, I believe.
 
If you have any interest in any non-US manufactured ammunition and/or firearms, I would suggest that you let your CongressCritters know of your concerns.

If they even try it, that will be the end of the liberal power in America for decades to come. There is no possible way that they will get a unanimous vote anyway so its kind of a non issue. Its just an example of Obama foreign policy "tail tucking." Does anyone else feel like our current government cares more about what Germany and France want than what we at home NEED?
 
"Governments must resist US demands to give any single state the power to veto the treaty as this could hold the process hostage during the course of negotiations. We call on all governments to reject such a veto clause," said Oxfam International's policy adviser Debbie Hillier.

Or in other words, "Governments must resist the notion that they are subject to the people and when it comes to taking their natural rights away the government must not give anyone a choice. Only opressive states should be allowed a vote that counts."

It sounds to me like they would like to gerrymander the vote so that it has no possibility of losing.
 
The threat comes from the fact that "international Treaties" are more off the radar than legislation being pushed through Congress. Thus, your aforementioned CongressCritters feel there is a reduced chance of significant backlash from RKBA groups. Whether they are right or not is irrelevant, because their perception will guide their votes.

That makes it critical that the perception is changed, and Congress becomes aware that WE are aware. A great example of an astounding success in a similar situation was the awareness campaign that defeated the reclassification of Switchblades by US Customs.

Therefore: Let the politicians hear from you again. It's the only way they know you exist.
 
This should actually make for an interesting constitutional fight should any such treaties try to infringe on 2nd amendment rights. Pending incorporation, you'll have a arguable conflict between a 2nd amendment right and a treaty obligation. I believe that constitutional rights would trump in that situation.

You are correct that Constitutional rights would trump a treaty. A treaty may "expand" federal power to encompass powers not otherwise explictly granted to them in the Constitution. I use quotes around expand because this is not technically a correct legal analysis. The Constitution explicitly grants the feds the power to make treaties. So long as the treaties concern a legitimate subject of international concern which a treaty may be used to address, then a treaty may indeed vest the feds with authority over something that they would not possess by any other grant of power in the Constitution. However. a treaty can not vest them with power which is explicitly prohibited them.... such as infringing the right to keep and bear arms.
 
Another attempt to appease other countries. FEAR NOT, for the loopholes are big enough to drive a truck through. In other words, this is DOA, total non-issue not worth the paper it is printed on. So everyone goes away feeling warm and fuzzy but in the end status quo remains and absolutely nothing happens.:neener:
 
This piece of trash means little or nothing and is not a danger to RKBA.

It's about attempts to regulate the illegal sale of arms to rebels and terrorists and criminals around the world. They are very specific about not interfering with any countries internal laws or enforcement. It does nothing to interfere with the legal, above the board world trade in small arms and ammunition.

Seeing how they have set it up that any one country can torpedo the whole deal it's not likely that anything at all will come out of this.

One more example of all the Nervous Nellies (like the NRA) screaming "They're going to take our guns away!", "and send us your money right now!"

There are plenty enough real threats to gun rights - like creeping incrementalism, the little gun laws that creep in quietly - that need our attention and best efforts. No need to get all riled up over nothing.

AL
 
Big O recently said that the United States now supports the UN Millenium Development Goals. If you haven't read this example of UN obfuscation you will probably find it interesting reading..... either they've been taking lessons from our Congress or we've been taking lessons from them. The treaty governing small arms controls is buried in there, so in buying the camel's nose (ratifying the Millenium Goals)...surprise! you get the whole camel, especially the hump.

The UN has a goal of getting this done by 2015 and they're bringing the heat. Too bad we no longer have a pit bull like John Bolton watching our back in that cess pool.
 
I don't know if this thing will ever go anywhere, but I do get a little tired of the definitive dismissals (well it requires a Senate vote etc, so anything they come up with is DOA, etc) that folks love to toss out there.

From a VCDL newsletter, another view:
"Congressional-executive agreements" and Supreme Court decisions mean treaties *are* a threat to gun rights.

On the issue of treaties (From Gary Marbut), it is no longer the case that treaties require 67 senators to approve. Many treaties nowadays are agreed to by the president and the foreign countries in question, then passed as a conventional law requiring a simple majority of each house of Congress.
This is called a "congressional-executive agreement" and is considered identical in force to a treaty. The most famous of these congressional-executive agreements is NAFTA. In my opinion, this mode of adoption is clearly unconstitutional, but the courts disagree (see "Made in the USA Foundation v. United States").

Similarly, in Missouri v. Holland in 1918, the court ruled that a law already overturned as unconstitutional when passed by Congress was constitutional when later approved as a treaty: "Acts of Congress are the supreme law of the land only when made in pursuance of the Constitution, while treaties are declared to be so when made under the authority of the United States."

But later in 1957 in Reid v. Covert, the Court ruled the opposite way and said that treaties could be made only if they are consistent with the constitution; however, this ruling has not been used as precedent to nullify any treaty the US has ever entered into. Indeed no treaty or congressional-executive agreement the US has ever ratified/passed has been overturned as unconstitutional. As you can see, the courts are not generally friendly to individual rights.

So what does this mean for gun owners? It means these treaties ARE a threat. As the health-care bill demonstrates, the President can get Congress to pass pretty much any hairbrained scheme he wants them to if he applies enough pressure. So I respectfully disagree with Gary Marbut on both his "Civics 10x" items. Treaties do not require 67 senators, and the constitution can be (and has been) effectively amended by the whims of five of the nine justices on the Supreme Court. Thus from a legal perspective, our gun rights depend on the continued health (for probably at least six more years) of five individuals now aged 55, 60, 62, 74, and 74. This fact makes it all the more important that we protect our rights politically (as opposed to legally) by participating in organizations such as VCDL, GOA, and NRA.
 
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It's about attempts to regulate the illegal sale of arms to rebels and terrorists and criminals around the world.

What a shock. Somebody here actually understands. How unusual.

Even if this treaty were adopted, it has nothing to do with us.
 
Make no mistake about it. The UN's ultimate goal is to disarm the world. (good luck with that)

It's not much of stretch of imagination to go from the thought of keeping weapons out of the wrong people's hands to the thought of getting rid of all wepons will keep them out of the wrong people's hands. See how simple?? Some people actually believe that is the way to go about it.

What will be interesting is where the US gun manufacturers fall on the subject. It would be beneficial to them to ban the import of weapons/ammo to the USA. Follow the money.
 
I wonder if this treaty will end up causing some foreign gun companies to move to the US.

Glock, Beretta, Steyr, Walther and FN (others?) have some manufacturing here in The States (a good way to get around import bans) I've often wondered if these companies have also set up some manufacturing here as a way to hedge their bets against a European outright ban.
 
The liberal bloc on the SCOTUS has gotten in the habit of citing foreign law to justify their decisions and part of the liberal mantra is that the Constition is a "living" document, i.e. a blank slate that they can write on as they choose. Another part of the liberal mantra for everything from gun control to gays in the military is that "everyone else does it." So, yes these treaties are a threat.
 
If I was a gun runner I might care about this.:D


Its not going to happen, besides either way the big country's that ship all the guns, ie US, China, Russia, and France won't slow down.


OTOH slowing the shipments of arms would help Mexico fight their cartel problem. The cartel's are now free to buy what they want from a number of international sources.
 
What will be interesting is where the US gun manufacturers fall on the subject. It would be beneficial to them to ban the import of weapons/ammo to the USA. Follow the money.

That is true, and if legislation were ever introduced to ban the importation of firearms and/or ammunition or components, and it failed, I would instantly stop buying anything and everything from every single American factory that supported such legislation. I would also petition my fellow gun enthusiasts to do the same: I doubt very much, however, that I would need to (as I am sure you all feel very much the same way), which why I don't believe any company would be foolish enough to support such a thing.
 
NRA-ILA text as follows:
Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Contrary to a widely circulated e-mail, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has not signed any UN small arms treaty. She could not have done so, in fact, because no such treaty has yet been negotiated.

As we noted in the item below from last November, the UN Arms Trade Treaty will be drafted between now and 2012, and even if signed would not take effect in the U.S. until it was ratified by the Senate.

Please rest assured that, as we said in November, NRA will be actively involved in this process and will oppose any treaty that would attempt to impose limits on our Second Amendment rights. In the meantime, we urge gun owners to follow this issue in NRA's magazines and NRA-ILA's Grassroots Alerts. We also urge gun owners not to circulate misinformation on this issue.
 
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