Uberti .45-.70 Springfield trapdoor carbine?
- Thread starter DavidB2
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peacemaker45
Member
I don't think "modern ammo," is a good idea in any trapdoor. If you want an older style with modern performance, the 1885 Browning High Wall is your better bet. Or for the ultimate in strong single shots, the Ruger No 1.
Jim Watson
Member
The Remington 405 gr JSP is "modern" without the learning curve of cast bullets and black powder. It and a repro rifle should be a good match.
stubbicatt
Member
I'd concur with the other contributors who have cautioned against modern loads in any trapdoor. If you handload you can build some decent loads with 5744 powder and whichever cast bullet you choose.
I do not know about using a jacketed bullet in that rifle.
I do not know about using a jacketed bullet in that rifle.
Jackal
Member
For the $500 or so that Trapdoors can be found for, why not just get the real deal? At least that way you have a piece of US history in your hands and not an Italian replica.... 45-70 can be reloaded by hand with a $20 Lee Loader.
Yes they do.
http://www.uberti.com/springfield-trapdoor-cartridge-rifle-and-carbine#specifications-section
The modern reproductions handle smokeless loads very well, including jacketed bullet loadings but you cannot safely shoot ramped up smokeless loads like the factory Cor-Bon or Hornady Leverlution loads in them nor any loads designed for 1886-Marlin 1895- or Ruger single shots.
I had a Pedersoli 1873 Springfield Infantry Rifle for a time.
It was a well made rifle but I have always preferred my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Infantry rifle and that is the one I kept.
Having used both the Trapdoor and the Sharpes, I prefer the Trapdoor. Easier to manage from prone and easier to carry afield. I had originals of both, I still have several trapdoors.
Others like the Sharps as it appeals to their idea of history and buffalo and of course the "down under" fantasy. I like the simple manual of arms the trapdoor offers and all the history it brings to the table.
As for modern ammunition, I prefer blackpowder BUT, from April to June of 1898, the Arsenal was developing smokeless powder loads for the Trapdoor. The Spanish American War demanded the development stop as all efforts were directed toward winning that fracas.
When the Arsenal was testing the new 30 Gov't cartridge, they rebarrelled the Trapdoors to test barrel steel.
Kevin
eastbank
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while having and shooting the trapdoor,i prefer the pedersoli target 74 sharps as its easier to mount a tang target sight and it,s very easy to take down to clean(new high walls are not), i have high walls but only shoot smokeless powder in them. eastbank.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
"Modern load", what is that?
If it means standard production .45/70 ammo loaded to SAAMI standard pressures with smokeless powder, then you are perfectly safe with any of it.
If it means high pressure loads intended for Marlin 1895's, Winchester 1886's, 1885's or Ruger No. 1's, then absolutely not.
If it means standard production .45/70 ammo loaded to SAAMI standard pressures with smokeless powder, then you are perfectly safe with any of it.
If it means high pressure loads intended for Marlin 1895's, Winchester 1886's, 1885's or Ruger No. 1's, then absolutely not.
That's not surprising.
The Italians have seemed to formed a manufacturing coalition which out sources to one another.
Just the same, the guns are extremely well made for "Furrin" stuff.
Factory ammo
When I say "Modern Load;" I am referring to the cheaper factory ,45-.70 ammo ammo made by Remington, Winchester or Federal. Also the hornandy .45-.70 leverlution. I probably should reload; but the materials seem hard to find. Black powder is really getting hard to find in many areas.
When I say "Modern Load;" I am referring to the cheaper factory ,45-.70 ammo ammo made by Remington, Winchester or Federal. Also the hornandy .45-.70 leverlution. I probably should reload; but the materials seem hard to find. Black powder is really getting hard to find in many areas.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The .45-70 should be one of the easiest cartridges to find components for.
Brass:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/941110085
Bullets:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/796585
Couple pounds of 4895 and you're all set.
Brass:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/941110085
Bullets:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/796585
Couple pounds of 4895 and you're all set.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
SAAMI spec for maximum pressure for the 45-70 is 28,000 psi.
My old Speer reloading manual, 13th edition lists three different sections for loading the 45-70 with Smokeless powder.
The first section is subtitled Trapdoors. These loads are specifically for original Springfield Trapdoor rifles, modern replicas, and original Sharps Model 1874 and Rolling Block actions. All the loads in this section are kept to 21,000 CUP. This section also states that modern factory 45-70 ammunition is loaded well below the Max pressure of 28,000 CUP (yeah, that's what it says, CUP, not PSI) to be safe to shoot in the old, original Trapdoors. Dunno whether I believe that or not.
The next section is labeled Lever Action. These loads are specifically for newly manufactured Marlin Model 1895 rifles, Browning Model 1886 rifles, replica (not original) Sharps Model 1874, original Winchester Model 1886 rifles, and original Winchester Model 1885 single shot rifles known to be in good condition. The pressure limit for these loads is under the 28,000 SAAMI spec of 28,000 CUP. Yeah, CUP again instead of PSI.
The last section of 45-70 loads is only for strong, modern rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and No. 3 single shots. This section also lists modern manufacture Browning 1885 single shots and Mauser M98 'properly converted to fire 45-70 ammunition'. The loads in this section approach 35,000 CUP. Clearly not for the old guns.
I checked both the Uberti and the Pedersoli web pages regarding what ammunition would be safe to fire in their versions of the Trapdoor. As I suspected, there was no information regarding this. However ALL firearms manufactured in Italy are proofed in government run proof houses, and European proof standards are actually slightly higher than American proof standards. The question gets asked all the time whether Uberti revolvers are safe with SAAMI spec loads or whether they must be restricted to 'cowboy' loads. The answer to that question is that they are all completely safe with SAAMI spec ammunition. I suspect the same is true of all the rifles imported from Italy.
However bear in mind that the Trapdoor carbine is a light rifle. The Army reduced the original charge of 70 grains of Black Powder to about 55 grains because the recoil from 70 grains was just too much in a Carbine. I can attest to that, having fired full 70 grain loads in a friend's replica Trapdoor carbine. If I was going to be buying ammunition for a modern replica Trapdoor carbine I would be careful how much recoil the ammo was going to generate. I would go with ammo with lighter published energy.
Personally, I only load 45-70 with Black Powder, for my original Trapdoor rifle and my Pedersoli Sharps. They are heavy rifles and 70 grains of Black Powder under a 405 grain bullet recoils pretty good. I don't like a 500 grain bullet over 70 grains of FFg.
SAAMI spec for maximum pressure for the 45-70 is 28,000 psi.
My old Speer reloading manual, 13th edition lists three different sections for loading the 45-70 with Smokeless powder.
The first section is subtitled Trapdoors. These loads are specifically for original Springfield Trapdoor rifles, modern replicas, and original Sharps Model 1874 and Rolling Block actions. All the loads in this section are kept to 21,000 CUP. This section also states that modern factory 45-70 ammunition is loaded well below the Max pressure of 28,000 CUP (yeah, that's what it says, CUP, not PSI) to be safe to shoot in the old, original Trapdoors. Dunno whether I believe that or not.
The next section is labeled Lever Action. These loads are specifically for newly manufactured Marlin Model 1895 rifles, Browning Model 1886 rifles, replica (not original) Sharps Model 1874, original Winchester Model 1886 rifles, and original Winchester Model 1885 single shot rifles known to be in good condition. The pressure limit for these loads is under the 28,000 SAAMI spec of 28,000 CUP. Yeah, CUP again instead of PSI.
The last section of 45-70 loads is only for strong, modern rifles, such as the Ruger No. 1 and No. 3 single shots. This section also lists modern manufacture Browning 1885 single shots and Mauser M98 'properly converted to fire 45-70 ammunition'. The loads in this section approach 35,000 CUP. Clearly not for the old guns.
I checked both the Uberti and the Pedersoli web pages regarding what ammunition would be safe to fire in their versions of the Trapdoor. As I suspected, there was no information regarding this. However ALL firearms manufactured in Italy are proofed in government run proof houses, and European proof standards are actually slightly higher than American proof standards. The question gets asked all the time whether Uberti revolvers are safe with SAAMI spec loads or whether they must be restricted to 'cowboy' loads. The answer to that question is that they are all completely safe with SAAMI spec ammunition. I suspect the same is true of all the rifles imported from Italy.
However bear in mind that the Trapdoor carbine is a light rifle. The Army reduced the original charge of 70 grains of Black Powder to about 55 grains because the recoil from 70 grains was just too much in a Carbine. I can attest to that, having fired full 70 grain loads in a friend's replica Trapdoor carbine. If I was going to be buying ammunition for a modern replica Trapdoor carbine I would be careful how much recoil the ammo was going to generate. I would go with ammo with lighter published energy.
Personally, I only load 45-70 with Black Powder, for my original Trapdoor rifle and my Pedersoli Sharps. They are heavy rifles and 70 grains of Black Powder under a 405 grain bullet recoils pretty good. I don't like a 500 grain bullet over 70 grains of FFg.
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