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UK: Bullets cache found in PC murder raid

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Zedicus, Dec 31, 2003.

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  1. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...31.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/31/ixnewstop.html

    I am at a loss for words to describe my thoughts on this....:banghead:
     
  2. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    Two thoughts:

    1. It's a shame there's no death penalty in the UK. That policy should be reconsidered.

    2. Condolences to the family of the slain Police Constable.
     
  3. Zedicus

    Zedicus Member

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    I feel the same, however (I should have said so) I was refering to the american being arrested for having reloding equipment and some 9mm rounds...

    It's nuts!.:cuss:
     
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    If I were transported to the UK, I would be put away for life for all the firearms I've got. They'd consider me a greater threat than any real criminal. The UK is an Orwellian nightmare state. Of course some of our own Eastern states are no better.
     
  5. agricola

    agricola Member

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    the main suspect for this, a US citizen, has been arrested and is currently being questioned by Police investigating the murder of Pc Broadhurst and the attempted murder of Pc Roper and the extremely lucky (bullet was deflected off his radio) Pc Banks.

    Zedicus:

    this is beneath even you given what he had and used them for. Diddums that the poor American will face these charges in addition to the murder, attempted murder, handling stolen goods and possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life charges.

    A pity we cannot send this scum back to you air-freight and on two different planes.

    cosmoline,

    yeah, I can see how them going after the murderer of one of their collegues makes this all too Orwellian for your tastes :rolleyes:


    oh and happy new year all from GMT land
     
  6. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Not the investigation, but the fact that my firearms would automatically make me as guilty as any murderer over there. Even though I have never injured anyone with them. While I grew up on BBC TV and love much about the UK, I detest the laws and the apathy of the current generation of sheeple.

    But like I said I feel the same way about US states such as New Jersey and cities such as Chicago, NYC and DC. The difference is here we are still able to move to a free state such as Alaska. In the UK it's all slave state.
     
  7. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

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    What probably gives me most cause for astonishment - concern .......... is that he was not patted down and disarmed. Or do they assume in ''gun-free'' UK this is not necessary. This could have saved the cop's life.

    Never assume.
     
  8. Fed168

    Fed168 Member

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    Unarmed police- not good.
     
  9. Balog

    Balog Member

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    agricola, let me quote a couple things us wild cowboys over here in America might object to.
    I also got a kick out of this line
    Look out, he's got ammo!!!
     
  10. Balog

    Balog Member

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    Speaking of things that amuse me....

    Imagine a sniveling Euro-trash subject who is on the national Olympic shooting team for his particular socialist hell-hole. He turns to the internet for info on shooting, and comes here. He strikes up a friendship with one of our members in Alaska, and when business forces him to cross the pond they arrange a meeting. Upon arrival the yank, anxious to impress his friend, shows off his setup. Imagine the shock, the horror! Private citizens with machine guns! No licenses for any of the dozens of rifles, shotguns, and handguns! Kegs of powder! Thousands of bullets, primers, and brass! AND YOU CAN CARRY CONCEALED WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!!! I bet it'd blow his/her pathetic little mind.









    Note: this post should not be taken as a specific comment on any forum member. It's merely a hypothetical situation I find amusing. No offense intended to any.
     
  11. agricola

    agricola Member

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  12. Iain

    Iain Member

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    Ag, there had to be some reason why he had turned up here under a different name and was prepared to kill three officers over a stolen car. Terrible case. Good that it wasn't another Prudom though.
     
  13. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Member

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    Balog, one great way to be absolutely sure of not causing offence to anyone is to refrain from posting this kind of ignorant nonsense!

    Happy New Year

    T.S.
     
  14. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes, Ag, that's a shame. If you sent him over here, we'd give him a fair trial. If he was convicted, rather than put him in jail for having a reloading press and some primers and brass, we'd execute him for murdering a police officer.

    Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think it's too bad you can't ship him back. Failing that, it's too bad you can't at least do the right thing.
     
  15. Balog

    Balog Member

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    The Scandinavian: first off, welcome to the High Road.
    I realize that post was pretty sarcastic, but I stand by my assessment. 99% of the Europeans I've met would probably react in the way I've described. Even among Euros who post on gun boards I've yet to meet a truly zealous defender of liberty. That is somewhat disheartening. My opinion could also apply to a lot of Americans.
     
  16. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Member

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    Hi again

    Yeah that sounds a bit more balanced :)

    Don't forget that some of your freedoms are pretty entertaining to those of us on this side of the pond though!

    Your ten round magazine limits for example are always good for a laugh. Criminals over here aren't disciplined enough to follow laws like this. For example, in scandinavia, a rule like this would only be obeyed by the good guys, and would therefore only serve as an irritation to the law-abiding :p (I'm sure that every country has it's share of comedy legislation though - after all politics attracts the same personality types everywhere ;) )

    From here (admittedly a long way away) it looks like the poulation there is ready to accept as 'freedom' whatever those in power spin it to mean. And it also looks as though that definition is slipping from month to month.

    Not so many years ago people in Europe used to look up to America, but sorry to say that that really isn't really the case now.

    I guess there are lots of ways of looking at liberty...
     
  17. HankB

    HankB Member

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    Hmmm . . . if that's truly the reaction of Brit coppers to the mere sight of a firearm, then there may be a useful lesson in this one sentence . . . at least, for those who may be confronted by Brit constabulary. :evil:

    Note that producing a firearm when accosted by a police officer in the USA is likely to provoke a rather different response. :uhoh:
     
  18. romulus

    romulus Member

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    Not so many years ago, as an Italian citizen living in Italy - I left in 1988 - I used to look at Europeans as being better prepared educationally, culturally, intellectually than Americans. In the last twenty years the power of reasoning based in knowledge of Europeans has grossly diminished, being replaced by silly ideologizing. A prime example is the ideologically driven argumentation meant to show the civil superiority of European laws with regards to firearms. Not all Europe is England or Sweden, however, and there are some pockets of sanity like Norway and to some extent, Italy.

    The sense I now get - and Scandinavian's posts confirm my feelings - is that huge tracts of the citizenry in Europe have completely surrendered their natural obligation of defending life and limb, along with the concurrent obligation to acquire the means to do so, to the omnipotent state.

    Justice in England now is such that the cop-killer will get no harsher sentence than farmer Martin, the real criminal in the case being the gun and the reloading equipment, whose standing as causa primis of any murder is now ensconced in both British law and public consciousness.

    Pathetic, really, as are the ridicule and sarcasm coming from Europeans.
     
  19. agricola

    agricola Member

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    romulus,

    you are clearly wrong, as will be shown at this mans trial.
     
  20. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    The Scandinavian wrote:


    Perhaps there is a language barrier here that you are having difficulty overcoming. Are you saying the magazine capacity limitation enacted in '94 represents one of our "freedoms?"

    If you were to perform a search on this message board, or its' predecessor: The Firing Line, I'm sure you would find the argument that you have presented; that gun-control laws only serve to affect the law abiding, repeated a minimum of approximately one quarter of a million times.

    Reagrding laughable infringements on personal freedom, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, what percentage of your income did you send to your Scandanavian government in the form of taxes last year? Assuming that you work.
     
  21. romulus

    romulus Member

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    Martin is in jail for life, isn't he? With no death penalty, how can this guy get more than Martin?
     
  22. cordex

    cordex Member

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    Heart goes out to the slain officer's family.
    Ag, I'll cover shipping back here if you pack him in multiple boxes, none greater than 20 pounds.

    That said, the immoral action was the murder of one person and attempted murder of two other people - not owning a reloading press. I'd not blink twice if the proper person were convicted and executed for murder and attempted murder, but I don't see any valid, moral reason to jail this fellow because he had reloading equipment. Execute the murderer and be done with it. The fact that he had a press is meaningless to me.
     
  23. The Scandinavian

    The Scandinavian Member

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    Perhaps there is a language barrier here that you are having difficulty overcoming. Are you saying the magazine capacity limitation enacted in '94 represents one of our "freedoms?"

    Hi

    I strongly suspect that my English is much better than your Finnish. But if you feel that my language skills are in need of refinement I would be glad of any constructive input.

    No, I wasn't referring to the capacity limit as a freedom, rather an example one of the many (albeit in this case trivial) ways in which freedom is compromised. Other more recognisably conventional freedoms, freedom of speech, freedom to elect political representitives of our free choice, etc etc, are things that we have in common; up to the point which they are permitted by our respective regimes. For example, it appears that your freedom of speech is restricted somewhat - there have been threads here and elsewhere that have said that people who disagree with Bush and hold placards to that effect are kept in separate "free speech" areas. Restrictions such as that would cause an uproar if they were tried here I'm sure.



    If you were to perform a search on this message board, or its' predecessor: The Firing Line, I'm sure you would find the argument that you have presented; that gun-control laws only serve to affect the law abiding, repeated a minimum of approximately one quarter of a million times.



    Yeah I know, I'm preaching to the choir :p


    Reagrding laughable infringements on personal freedom, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, what percentage of your income did you send to your Scandanavian government in the form of taxes last year? Assuming that you work.


    Off the top of my head, about 24% in total if I remember correctly. I can't complain though because the level and quality of public services are pretty high - at some level it does represent some sort of value, it's not like we get nothing for that.

    One point I'd like to make - I've travelled very widely and met people from pretty much all over the world. One thing that really strikes me is how similar people are the world over. Ok we might eat reindeer, they might wear funny clothes etc etc but when you talk to people as individauals the same things concern us all: family, education, work - things at that level form a commonality that could be a greater force in uniting people from different cultures.

    I realise though that that isn't a particularly popular perspective at the moment when the emphasis seems to be on differences, and working up hate...
     
  24. agricola

    agricola Member

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    romulus,

    no, martin is out following a few years for manslaughter (reduced from murder on appeal (due to diminished responsibility)).

    that said, i assumed you knew that. In which case, in light of that new information I agree with you - Martin's murder of Fred Barras should receive the same sentence (life) as Bieber/Coleman's murder (albeit Beiber / Coleman gets concurrent life sentences for attempted murder x2, and at the conclusion of those sentences is repatriated to the US whereupon he serves his life sentence (or death).
     
  25. romulus

    romulus Member

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    There you have it...the notion of the "criminality" of the gun actually seems more ensconced in the public than in the law as I previously postulated (if Ag is typical among the Brits.) Meaning a court downgrades the sentence to manslaughter, but Ag still refers to it as murder.

    Your equating the two crimes would be repugnant if it weren't comical...actually it still is repugnant...
     
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