Unarmed man is about to clean your clock. What do you do?
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TheLastBoyScout
Member
Marines come in 2 varieties. Big'n'mean, or wiry'n'mean.
I'm going to be one of the latter.
There are very few adult men small enough to not pose a credible threat to me hand-to-hand.
If I can't get clear easily, someone punching me is likely to eat a knife... My hand-to-hand is not combat-ready (ask me again after the fall semester), and because of my age a concealed firearm is not usually an option.
I don't start fights, but I take the attitude that I will end them as decisively as possible.
"A fair fight means someone screwed up badly during mission planning".
Legally, given my size (5'11'' 135), I could probably make a convincing enough disparity of force arguement.
I'm going to be one of the latter.
There are very few adult men small enough to not pose a credible threat to me hand-to-hand.
If I can't get clear easily, someone punching me is likely to eat a knife... My hand-to-hand is not combat-ready (ask me again after the fall semester), and because of my age a concealed firearm is not usually an option.
I don't start fights, but I take the attitude that I will end them as decisively as possible.
"A fair fight means someone screwed up badly during mission planning".
Legally, given my size (5'11'' 135), I could probably make a convincing enough disparity of force arguement.
DarkKnight01
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Yea, its the other way around for me.... im 6'1 and 220... in pretty good shape... but either way my rights are no different than your rights.
Real situation.
I was working in downtown Indianapolis about 5 yrs. ago. I was working for parking services. I sat in a box with a bunch of cash and collected fees...bla ..bla..(college campus fire arms are against campus policy)
(never been big on policy)
Had a dude get crazy on me. He was at least 6ft.6in or more probably weighed around 400 lbs. and not a bit of fat. This was no man it was Goliath!!
I was in my late 20's 5ft.6in. and about 140 lbs. Hand to hand this would have been like a VW bug playing chicken with a sherman tank! This guys arms were as big as my waist.
He didn't want to pay his fee and started having a fit. Threatening me. O.K. I'm used to this just stay cool and be firm hold your ground. (I refuse to be intimidated!)
He got out of his car and came towards my little booth. the only thing between us was a thin sheet of plexi glass.
I pulled my Makarov aimed straight at his big Melon and told him to get back in his car.
He suddenly became very respectfull and cooperative.
Would I have shot him YES! I almost did. And that is thankfully the only time I've ever had to pull a gun and one of the scariest things I've ever had happen to me. Not scary because he would have easily beaten me stupid but scary because I almost had to kill a man over something stupid.
I was working in downtown Indianapolis about 5 yrs. ago. I was working for parking services. I sat in a box with a bunch of cash and collected fees...bla ..bla..(college campus fire arms are against campus policy)
(never been big on policy)
Had a dude get crazy on me. He was at least 6ft.6in or more probably weighed around 400 lbs. and not a bit of fat. This was no man it was Goliath!!
I was in my late 20's 5ft.6in. and about 140 lbs. Hand to hand this would have been like a VW bug playing chicken with a sherman tank! This guys arms were as big as my waist.
He didn't want to pay his fee and started having a fit. Threatening me. O.K. I'm used to this just stay cool and be firm hold your ground. (I refuse to be intimidated!)
He got out of his car and came towards my little booth. the only thing between us was a thin sheet of plexi glass.
I pulled my Makarov aimed straight at his big Melon and told him to get back in his car.
He suddenly became very respectfull and cooperative.
Would I have shot him YES! I almost did. And that is thankfully the only time I've ever had to pull a gun and one of the scariest things I've ever had happen to me. Not scary because he would have easily beaten me stupid but scary because I almost had to kill a man over something stupid.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i yell in a loud voice "help! help! i need an adult!"
Lil38
Member
WT, This was all I could find. http://www.aagunsales.com/News/Governor+to+sign+off+on+new+self-defense+bill I live in Florida, naturally, I'm in favor of it 100% 
Being a female and a bit on the small-ish side, It'd be hard to see a situation as anything but fear for my safety. Sure, state rules vary, situations vary, responses vary... I think I'd still have to go with what Joejojoba111 said- "..only one rule - win."
Being a female and a bit on the small-ish side, It'd be hard to see a situation as anything but fear for my safety. Sure, state rules vary, situations vary, responses vary... I think I'd still have to go with what Joejojoba111 said- "..only one rule - win."
chopinbloc
Member
shiny beating. electroless asp. 'nuff said.
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Joejojoba111
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The odds are I'm all talk, don't carry, probably never will, and probably wouldn't have the nerve to kill, based on previous confrontations where I was just scared and honestly didn't want to injure the other guy.
But in THEORY, when I think about it, someone attacking you is someone attacking you, period. Pistol rifle knife screwdriver tire-iron pool-cue foot fist who the hell cares? If you're fighting it's a good bet it's because you can't get away, obviously. so...
IMO a lot of people here are fearless or I must be a coward.
But in THEORY, when I think about it, someone attacking you is someone attacking you, period. Pistol rifle knife screwdriver tire-iron pool-cue foot fist who the hell cares? If you're fighting it's a good bet it's because you can't get away, obviously. so...
IMO a lot of people here are fearless or I must be a coward.
Igloodude
Member
I'm middle-aged, 5'8"/230. However, I'm not a former bouncer, haven't studied martial arts more than the semester of boxing class in college (which I've retained as well as the calculus classes, which is to say zippo), have almost no hand-eye coordination or natural physical ability, don't exercise, can run nearly as fast as your average tree, and (probably partly as a result of all of the above) have all the natural aggression of an undersized possum.
If someone is about to punch me, odds are extremely high that #1 I haven't knowingly done anything to provoke them, and #2 they are far more experienced in fistfighting than I am and can almost certainly beat me as much as they like. Yes, I am likely to draw if help isn't available and there's no good retreat option in sight. Either that, or the guy is getting the sucker punch from hell (which, obviously, might get me even more of a beating, but I'll take even odds over bad ones any day of the week).
And one of these days, I'm going to get back into shape.
If someone is about to punch me, odds are extremely high that #1 I haven't knowingly done anything to provoke them, and #2 they are far more experienced in fistfighting than I am and can almost certainly beat me as much as they like. Yes, I am likely to draw if help isn't available and there's no good retreat option in sight. Either that, or the guy is getting the sucker punch from hell (which, obviously, might get me even more of a beating, but I'll take even odds over bad ones any day of the week).
And one of these days, I'm going to get back into shape.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Joejo - pretty much no to both!! In my case I am far from fearless believe me but the bottom line is simple. ..... if someone is totally threatening my very survival - I have no choice but to stop them - by any means available.
I have zero wish to harm, let alone risk killing another but - if the stark choice comes up - him or me - then it is a no brainer - it HAS to be dealt with if I want to make it thru.
Does the thought of another wishing you great harm, invading the sanctity of YOUR life, leave you calm or angry? I suggest the latter is most folk's thinking and so we act accordingly. If that is, we have no place else to flee to - and that is #1 choice every time when armed.
Fearless?
As an ex Bouncer , and I have posted on this subject before, a little clarification might be in order, on the subject of being fearless or a coward.
If you own a vehicle, and drive it every day on busy Interstates, in large Cities, you develop a whole bunch of unconscious skills, these skills are subconscious skills, and they have to be, because thinking tires you out, and take to long.
Now you own a car, your better half needs it to drop off kids, and works in an Office 5 miles from home, and you work at home! Now your skills are not the same as person #1 above.
When you have been in a whole slew of fist (and whatever was handy) fights, and dressed for this activity, light weight steel toed boots, really soft rubber soles (Stick to the road material) athletic cup, pull away bow tie, and very important, no booze, you control your environment, and become very good at reading body language, you soon know who to hit, and when!
One of the advantages is a hidden one, the other side of society can also read body language, they need this skill, they live (and might die by it) in the last place they stopped at, they need to know who is meal, and who is, "We do not need his watch and wallet that bad” if you look like a victim, you might just become one.
So you will have to find a way to be the experienced driver! Who looks like a move on to the next mark to have a go at, seems like a plan to Joe predator!
As an ex Bouncer , and I have posted on this subject before, a little clarification might be in order, on the subject of being fearless or a coward.
If you own a vehicle, and drive it every day on busy Interstates, in large Cities, you develop a whole bunch of unconscious skills, these skills are subconscious skills, and they have to be, because thinking tires you out, and take to long.
Now you own a car, your better half needs it to drop off kids, and works in an Office 5 miles from home, and you work at home! Now your skills are not the same as person #1 above.
When you have been in a whole slew of fist (and whatever was handy) fights, and dressed for this activity, light weight steel toed boots, really soft rubber soles (Stick to the road material) athletic cup, pull away bow tie, and very important, no booze, you control your environment, and become very good at reading body language, you soon know who to hit, and when!
One of the advantages is a hidden one, the other side of society can also read body language, they need this skill, they live (and might die by it) in the last place they stopped at, they need to know who is meal, and who is, "We do not need his watch and wallet that bad” if you look like a victim, you might just become one.
So you will have to find a way to be the experienced driver! Who looks like a move on to the next mark to have a go at, seems like a plan to Joe predator!
Fearlessness
Most people are fearless because they are clueless about how dangerous some people can be. If you don't know how to escape from a leg lock, heel hook, triangle, or armbar like it was second nature, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE. If you have never witnessed the effect that a 2" pen knife can have on human flesh with your own eyes, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE. Lastly, if you have not sparred full contact with a resisting opponent in the last 60 days, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE.
Fear is good.
Most people are fearless because they are clueless about how dangerous some people can be. If you don't know how to escape from a leg lock, heel hook, triangle, or armbar like it was second nature, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE. If you have never witnessed the effect that a 2" pen knife can have on human flesh with your own eyes, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE. Lastly, if you have not sparred full contact with a resisting opponent in the last 60 days, YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW IN DANGER YOU ARE.
Fear is good.
mics357
Member
awareness of your surroundings and instant threat assesment should be automatic for anyone who plans to carry, keeping your wits and remaning in control are key. everywhere i go in public is a study in situational awareness . I am no fighter and will always try to extract myself from a hostile enviroment, before an altercation occurs. but that doesn't mean turn an run, like most predators humans will tend to chase a fleeing prey. maintain eye contact and move away . verbalize your intent not to get into a physical conflict. if after that the subject continues at me I would consider myself under physical threat of harm. at that point I will draw and target , again verbalizing my intent not to get into a physical confrontation. at this point most unarmed people will decide to break contact. if subject continues towards me when he reaches a distance of about eight feet (roughly two steps) I will fire three rnds two center mass and one to face. holster my weapon and await arrival of leo.
I will always rather take my chances with law enforcement and courts than a coroner and morgue. by my thinking i gave him several chances to remove himself from a bad situation, and by his actions he showed plenty of intent to harm me. I don't and won't let him get to me or I have already lost control
and probably much more.
I will always rather take my chances with law enforcement and courts than a coroner and morgue. by my thinking i gave him several chances to remove himself from a bad situation, and by his actions he showed plenty of intent to harm me. I don't and won't let him get to me or I have already lost control
and probably much more.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
The first CHL shooting in Texas was against an unarmed man. The "unarmed" man managed to beat the CHL holder about the head with his fists, resulting in permanent vision loss in one eye.
He broke off the attack and started to walk off. He changed his mind and came back and when he did, the CHL holder shot him once, killing him. The CHL holder was aquitted.
If in fear for my life or risk of serious bodily harm, I have no qualms with meeting force with superior force. When these conditions are met in Texas, lethal force is legal.
He broke off the attack and started to walk off. He changed his mind and came back and when he did, the CHL holder shot him once, killing him. The CHL holder was aquitted.
If in fear for my life or risk of serious bodily harm, I have no qualms with meeting force with superior force. When these conditions are met in Texas, lethal force is legal.
Model520Fan
Member
No, you won't. If you think the fight is over, and he keeps stomping, he will most likely keep stomping until he gets tired of doing so. He will most likely not let you unload on him.
Most folks do not know the outcome of a fight, or even the result of the next punch or kick or stab, or where it is coming from. Your best chance of staying safe is, if verbal de-escalation is impossible, advancing to the rear. If that won't work, you should escalate not to the next higher level, but to the least higher level which will clearly control the situation. For most folks, this is probably drawing the gun. For some situations, it is firing the gun. For some situations, it may be soaking the aggressor with OC.
The difference between cops and non-cops is that cops don't always feel they have the option to retreat. Non-cops should usually (absent the family) feel that they have this option. Other than that, the rules are the same - no rules; just make sure you go home tonight.
Some LEO's may butt in and tell about all the rules they have to follow. I am sure they will be telling the truth, and they certainly have my sympathy, but they belong to the wrong department. There are departments where the rule is that the cop goes home, and the perp chooses his own fate.
Regardless, that is the rule for non-LEO. Sorting it out later is what lawyers are for. Just make sure that you don't use or threaten lethal force unless a reasonable man (you) would be in fear of his life, and then shut up until your lawyer teaches you how to get all the reasonable people on the jury to understand your reasonable fear for your life.
And stay the hell out of bars and bad neighborhoods.
Island Beretta
Member
this thread did not disappoint... a few:
1. If you are armed he is armed.. quite a few civilians and LEO get killed with their own gun..
2. A fist fight can be LETHAL..don't say oh, it's just a thump..what if you are knocked out.
3. You will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny if you shoot him..it should only really happen if there is no other way.. applies even when opponent is armed..
4. Escape is an option even if you weight 500 lbs.
and finally
5. Watch were you go..a crowded bar at 2 a.m. is a no-no even if you just want a smoke..or a dispensing machine with a bunch of fartheads hanging around at 3 in the morning.. pass on by..
1. If you are armed he is armed.. quite a few civilians and LEO get killed with their own gun..
2. A fist fight can be LETHAL..don't say oh, it's just a thump..what if you are knocked out.
3. You will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny if you shoot him..it should only really happen if there is no other way.. applies even when opponent is armed..
4. Escape is an option even if you weight 500 lbs.
and finally
5. Watch were you go..a crowded bar at 2 a.m. is a no-no even if you just want a smoke..or a dispensing machine with a bunch of fartheads hanging around at 3 in the morning.. pass on by..
I know I am probably a little late to chime in, but I was thinking about this whilst driving home.
It is not uncommon for people to be killed (or placed into a vegitate state) from a physical altercation. The most common one, is being knocked out, and hitting one's head on a kurb/the pavement on the way down. This actually happens quite alot. So, with that in mind, I'd say shooting the bastard is using justifiable force.
Pretty tricky question. I guess you can argue all the unknowns though, like do you know for certain he is unarmed? Because unless the guy is buck naked, he might be carrying something (siringe, knife..). Plus there is AIDS, and hepatitis to worry about. I guess when It comes down to it, the guy just wants to harm you, that's the simple version.
It is not uncommon for people to be killed (or placed into a vegitate state) from a physical altercation. The most common one, is being knocked out, and hitting one's head on a kurb/the pavement on the way down. This actually happens quite alot. So, with that in mind, I'd say shooting the bastard is using justifiable force.
Pretty tricky question. I guess you can argue all the unknowns though, like do you know for certain he is unarmed? Because unless the guy is buck naked, he might be carrying something (siringe, knife..). Plus there is AIDS, and hepatitis to worry about. I guess when It comes down to it, the guy just wants to harm you, that's the simple version.
Third_Rail
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There's no such thing as "unarmed" combat. Fists are weapons, they just happen to be attached.
"STOP" first, OC second, pistol third.
"STOP" first, OC second, pistol third.
Been there and never drew a knife or gun (never had time).
As I get older and slower I depend less on my own hands and more on tools to help, but the issue is speed more than anything else. As a result I try to train to keep my speed up. I train empty hand, cane, knife, stick, and gun in that order.
As I get older and slower I depend less on my own hands and more on tools to help, but the issue is speed more than anything else. As a result I try to train to keep my speed up. I train empty hand, cane, knife, stick, and gun in that order.
sturmruger
Member
In MN I am not authorized to use Deadly Force unless I am in fear of great bodily harm for myself or for another. If exiting the situation is not an option I think I would put my hand on my gun and put forth a positive air. Criminals and BGs like to prey on the weak if you openly show that you are not afraid they will usually get the mesage. If he was still getting close I think I would have my gun out at a low ready.
CAS700850
Member
Having been in situations close to this point (kind of goes with the job, you prosecute people, they get kinda mad at you). They tend to threaten, cuss at you, then ball up their fists. That's when I choose to retreat. Or at least put something between us. ONe time it happened was at a gas station. Guy pulled up at the pump next to me, and started the name calling. When he moved towards me, with fists clenched, I walked quickly to the other side of the car. Yeah, we looked silly as we ran around the car, more or less, with him trying to get close and me going the opposite way of the way he was coming. But it gave me more than enough time to get out my phone and call 911. When he saw me do that, he knew it was time to go.
By the way, I was alone. I was armed. Names don't hurt me. Neither did him challenging my manhood. And, although the responding officers laughed at me a bit (good natured, they knew me), they agreed I did it right.
It's not retreating, it's seeking a tactically superior position.
By the way, I was alone. I was armed. Names don't hurt me. Neither did him challenging my manhood. And, although the responding officers laughed at me a bit (good natured, they knew me), they agreed I did it right.
It's not retreating, it's seeking a tactically superior position.
Third_Rail
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Beautiful.
Ridge
Member
I'm not bragging but I have been in a few scrapes.
And with my expertise on the subject it's best to avoid it at all costs but once someone is in your face and there is no time to back away,you have to attack and fight back with everything you've got.
I've learned one thing that has remained constant through all of the bare knuckle brawls,and street fights I've been through,it's my personal creed.
"Fight to kill and you might live long enough to die an old man"
If any of you have had to fight for your life on a few occasions then you know that one fight is never the same as the first or last.
But when I was forced to fight,I wouldn't back down an inch,I've been stabbed twice,I came out of both situations because I hit even harder,I kicked a little quicker,and I used any "Dirty" trick I could.
Just remember one thing,there is no such thing as a fair fight,use what you can when you can.
And if you get another man down don't kick him,stomp the hell out of him and don't stop until they are either knocked out,begging for you to stop (At that point feel free to puch,kick or stomp them two or three more times) or dead.
No quarter would be given to you if the boot was on the other foot.
I'm done.
And with my expertise on the subject it's best to avoid it at all costs but once someone is in your face and there is no time to back away,you have to attack and fight back with everything you've got.
I've learned one thing that has remained constant through all of the bare knuckle brawls,and street fights I've been through,it's my personal creed.
"Fight to kill and you might live long enough to die an old man"
If any of you have had to fight for your life on a few occasions then you know that one fight is never the same as the first or last.
But when I was forced to fight,I wouldn't back down an inch,I've been stabbed twice,I came out of both situations because I hit even harder,I kicked a little quicker,and I used any "Dirty" trick I could.
Just remember one thing,there is no such thing as a fair fight,use what you can when you can.
And if you get another man down don't kick him,stomp the hell out of him and don't stop until they are either knocked out,begging for you to stop (At that point feel free to puch,kick or stomp them two or three more times) or dead.
No quarter would be given to you if the boot was on the other foot.
I'm done.
ZenMasterJG
Member
I've been in a couple tough fights as well, bad enough i started keeping a baseball bat in the back of my car. One time when i was drunk i scared a guy off by taking his punch and giving him a nice big bloody grin, but that cost me a tooth or two, and I wouldn't recommend it. Nowadays (since i still cant carry, darn you MD!) I carry a butterfly knife and a yawara stick in each pocket, and am fairly skilled with each.
My main self-defense skill, though, is that i've cooled off from when i was an angsty teenager and stopped provoking people. (Well, usually
)
My main self-defense skill, though, is that i've cooled off from when i was an angsty teenager and stopped provoking people. (Well, usually
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