Unburned Universal Clays Powder

[Foto Joe]

I will admit, I've been away from loading smokeless powder for 30 years. But I decided to get back into it at least for 38 Special.

Since I was loading exclusively Black Powder cartridges, I have no loading data for smokeless. I chose Universal Clays simply because it was listed in the insert on my Lee dies for 38 Special and coincided with the 158gr RNFP lead bullets I had. Here's the problem:

I'm getting unburned powder after firing, not much but it's definately visable in the nooks and crannies of the gun after 50 rounds. I'm loading 4.3gr behind a 158gr RNFP lead bullet. I started out at 3.5gr and have worked my way up. The "Never Exceed" is 4.5gr and since I'm paranoid about losing body parts I don't want to take it that high. Is this normal for Universal Clays? What other powders would provide a cleaner burn.

I'm very happy with the rounds other than the unburned powder issue, they're a LOT easier to load than Black Powder cartridges that's for sure.

 

[TheCracker]

Don't load it in 357 but I do load it in 9mm. Ive never had unburned powder in a few thousand rounds. You may need hotter primers

 

[Funshooter45]

I use a fair amount of Universal, although it is typically a bit higher pressure than what you're developing there. I do understand that you don't want to go higher in charge weight. It might be that Universal just isn't designed to operate efficiently in that pressure environment of 15,000 CUP or so. If you don't want to go to a higher charge, then you'll need to go to a faster powder. I have had real good luck with 231 and Tite Group in those cases. However, be forewarned that for .38 Special, you'll only be using 3.5 gr of those type powders, so it's easy to double charge if you're not paying attention. But you can do that with Universal as well. So like always, just pay attention. But both of those powders burn real clean at the lower pressures you are after. Another alternative is to use Trail Boss. About 4 gr of Trail Boss will come close to filling the case and it will burn pretty clean too.

 

[Walkalong]

The load is too light. Bump up the charge, as allowed by the data, until it burns completely. If that won't do it, you'll need a different powder. Bullseye, W-231 or 700X for instance.

 

[brickeyee]

Unburned powder is often from inadequate pressure.

Smokeless powder needs at least a decent amount to burn cleanly.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Lyman #49 shows 4.7 MAX with a 158 lead bullet.

I would suggest you ignore your unfounded fears and try 4.5 grains.

I can assure you, you will not loose any body parts as that is still well within standard .38 special SAAMI pressure at 4.7 grains.

If you want light loads, you need a faster burning powder.

rc

 

[Steve C]

Hodgdon lists 4.5grs of Universal as maximum .38 spl standard pressure load with a 158gr LSWC. At 4.3 grs you should be getting enough pressure to get good burn. Make sure to use a good crimp which will aid some in pressure buildup. Make sure you are not getting any case lube in the case or on the powder as this will prevent proper burn.

 

[Foto Joe]

I'm using Carbide dies, so the case lube issue is moot. I'll start with giving just a touch more crimp I think. Other than that, this will be my last jug of Universal.

 

[bloominonion]

The +P load is the 4.7 max in Hodgdon's manual, 4.5gn is 38 special. The odd part is the 357 lists a max of 6.3gn.

I am curious, as I basically just loaded the same thing yesterday, just in .357 cases. Why are the maximums so different for 38 special versus 357? They are pretty much the same aren't they, just a different case length? (Then again I may be assuming too much.)

 

[Foto Joe]

Being a Black Powder cartridge loading here's my take on it.

Smokeless powder burn is dependent upon atmospheric pressure. The higher the atmospheric pressure the faster it burns. Consequently as the powder in the longer 357 case burns it builds more pressure, which in turn causes the powder to burn faster, creating more pressure, faster burn, ad infinum until the powder is exhausted. It would be my opinion that the longer case provides more airspace to create a higher pressure providing faster burning of the powder.

Black Powder on the other hand burns at the same rate regardless of atmospheric pressure. If you light a pile of Black Powder on the ground you had better use a looong match!!

 

[Steve C]

They are pretty much the same aren't they, just a different case length?

Not the same in pressure. The .357 magnum operates at approximately 2X the pressure of the .38 spl and that is the reason more powder can be used in the .357 mag for higher bullet velocity.

SAAMI Maximum pressure standards:
38 Special 17,000 PSI
38 Special +P 18,500 PSI
357 Mag 35,000 PSI

 

[BossHogg]

I too use Universal because it listed as target,light duty, medium duty. I'm having the same problem with 158 gr swaged bullet at 4 gr. I may move up powder charge a little but don't want to get to hot with the swaged bullet. I may seat the bullet deeper to see if that will help any. I like the powder for most my loads just can't find that magic 38.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, 3.5 grains Bullseye powder & a 158 grain lead bullet was the factory .38 Special load for about the first 75 years after it was invented.

You might try that.

rc

 

[Publius1688]

I wouldn't seat deeper.
Try a little more crimp.
Otherwise, do like rcmodel says, and dump it for Bullseye. It's darn near the perfect .38 spec powder.