Understanding NICS

[Lone_Gunman]

Georgia's CCW permit has been ruled insufficient by the ATF as a means of exempting a gun purchaser from being subjected to a NICS check at the time of a gun purchase.

So it now seems that GA permit holders will undergo NICS checks like everyone else.

I am a little confused about NICS, and would have a few questions. I am particularly interested in hearing from FFL holders who deal with this stuff every day.

When I make a gun purchase, the dealer calls the FBI for a NICS check. My questions deal with how my approval is documented.

Is the dealer given some kind of confirmation, like a number perhaps, for my approval? How is the NICS approval documented on 4473? How does the ATF know he actually called and got a legitimate NICS approval, and not just make it up?

I know the FBI is supposed to delete NICS data after 24 hrs. However, if the issue of whether or not a NICS approval is legitimate or not ever came up, it looks to me like there would have to be some type of long term storage of data to prove later that the NICS check was done.

 

[Ala Dan]

When a call is made to the F.B.I.'s data center in West Virginia, all of the
necessary information from the 4473 form is given too a Brady operator,
who runs the NICS check. If a decision is made to proceed, a special
confirmation number is given to the dealer who records the number on
the reverse side of the 4473. The operator will then give the dealer
his/her name and corresponding Brady ID number. Then, it is the
responsibility of the dealer to store the completed 4473 form in their
files for ATF review and inspection during a possible audit.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Thats what I thought Ala Dan.

So this confirmation number is what I am wondering about. How does the ATF know that FFL dealers don't just make it up? There has to be a way for them to ensure that the confirmation number is valid.

For example, if an FFL dealer gets audited by the ATF or if a crime is commited and they want to find out if a NICS check was done, there has to be means for making sure that NICS check was valid.

So how can they do that if the data regarding the NICS is purged after 24 hrs?

 

[Beren]

So how can they do that if the data regarding the NICS is purged after 24 hrs?

I'm only speaking in theory as I don't know how they handle this, but it would be as simple as retaining a record of the confirmation number, FFL # of the transferor, and the date of the transaction. That would seem legal data to retain while still allowing them to purge the data specific to the purchaser.

 

[Graystar]

So this confirmation number is what I am wondering about. How does the ATF know that FFL dealers don't just make it up? There has to be a way for them to ensure that the confirmation number is valid.

They don't have a way to ensure the number is valid until the gun has to be traced for some reason. The feds go to the manufacturer, who tells them the distributor that got the gun, who tells them the FFL that got the gun, who better have either the gun or a 4473 with a valid confirmation number (or appropriate state verification, if allowed.)

 

[Lone_Gunman]

The feds go to the manufacturer, who tells them the distributor that got the gun, who tells them the FFL that got the gun, who better have either the gun or a 4473 with a valid confirmation number

How do they know if it is a valid confirmation number, and not one just randomly made up by the FFL, or maybe one used on a different sale also?

If there is no retention of data, then there is no way to connect a specific confirmation number to a specific person or gun.

How do they know the confirmation number was for that sale, and not a previous sale?

For example, lets say John buys a gun, is run through the NICS system, and gets a confirmation number of 12345.

Then Bill comes in and buys a gun. What keeps the FFL holder honest, and not just write 12345 (a valid number) on the back of Bill's 4473? It would just come down to the honest of the FFL, and somehow I don't think that would be good enough for the BATF.

 

[Ala Dan]

Most confirmation numbers are alpha numeric in nature; something like:

the numeral 0, followed by a letter T, - number 7, and letters M-K-A just
as an example. Each transaction has its own unique confirmation number.

And remember, any FFL dealer calling in a NICS check must also record
the name and Brady ID number of the person responsible for the
NICS check. That is kind'a a checks and balances system within its-self.

 

[waterhouse]

This is an interesting question. I am pretty sure that only the personal data has to be erased . . .your name, social, date of birth, race, etc. So let's say that the ATF comes to me and looks at a 4473: they can probably look at the date, and go in the computers and see that on such date NICS transaction number OTBXXXXX was given a "proceed".

That number sitting in the computer system isn't tied to the buyer's name, but they know that the number was issued. So if they trace a crime gun to my store, and they check the 4473 and they can't find the correct transaction number in the system, then they pretty much know I made it up. And then I'm in trouble. I'm not sure if this is how it works, but that's how I always thought it did.

And remember, any FFL dealer calling in a NICS check must also record
the name and Brady ID number of the person responsible for the
NICS check. That is kind'a a checks and balances system within its-self.

Except that this doesn't apply to the online NICS check, which I use almost exclusively.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

 

[rick_reno]

This is an interesting question. I am pretty sure that only the personal data has to be erased . . .your name, social, date of birth, race, etc. So let's say that the ATF comes to me and looks at a 4473: they can probably look at the date, and go in the computers and see that on such date NICS transaction number OTBXXXXX was given a "proceed".

That number sitting in the computer system isn't tied to the buyer's name, but they know that the number was issued. So if they trace a crime gun to my store, and they check the 4473 and they can't find the correct transaction number in the system, then they pretty much know I made it up. And then I'm in trouble. I'm not sure if this is how it works, but that's how I always thought it did.

While that data has to be erased from the live DB, does anyone know how often they back that DB up and what the retention period is on the backups?
I assuming they have a record (somewhere) of every purchase, purchaser, etc. in their backups.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

That number sitting in the computer system isn't tied to the buyer's name, but they know that the number was issued.

According to what you are saying, consider this scenario:

On 11/05/05, a gun dealer sells 10 guns. He calls in a NICS check on the first buyer, and records the confirmation number and NICS operator name/ID number.

He then gets tired of calling NICS, and just uses the same confirmation number on the next 10 purchases, and records the same NICS operator's name and ID number.

A few years later, BATF decides to check records for whatever reason. If they don't have a way to tie each individual buyers personal information to a specific confirmation number, then there is no way to tell that the gun dealer did not call NICS for the subsequent nine buyers.

Is it amazing to anyone besides me that over 10 years after NICS was started, no one here, including FFL holders, really knows how the system works???

 

[waterhouse]

Lone Gunman,

That seems like it would work, but it would only take about 15 man hours to enter all of the transaction numbers from a shop into a spreadsheet and then check to see if any of them are the same number. The thing about the gov't is that they pretty much have unlimited resourses and time to build a case, and if they suspect a dealer of breaking the law they could catch him in your scenario.

Is it likely? nope. But the ATF has done crazier things.

As for the information purge, straight from the ATF seminar handout:

Information Not Subject to the Purge:
* NICS Transaction Number
* The transaction creation date
Information that must be purged:
*Identifying information such as a subject's complete name, social security number, miscellaneous numbers, etc. must be destroyed within 24 hours of the FFL being notified of the allowed transaction.

In addition, they can keep my FFL name and number and the State of purchase in the system for up to 90 days.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Thank you very much Waterhouse.

 

[F4GIB]

Georgia's CCW permit has been ruled insufficient by the ATF as a means of exempting a gun purchaser from being subjected to a NICS check at the time of a gun purchase.

So it now seems that GA permit holders will undergo NICS checks like everyone else.

Please post a URL with details on this decision. When, why, by whom, etc.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Please post a URL with details on this decision. When, why, by whom, etc.

I have not seen it on the internet. I have heard this directly from FFL holders. Effective November 3 or 4, the GA permit became insufficient to exempt a buyer from the NICS check.

Apparently the GBI was not pulling CCW permits of people convicted of felonies. I have alse heard the Nevada ccw permit is no longer accepted.