Underwater guns?

[Preacherman]

In a discussion of shooting guns underwater on another e-mail list, the following was posted by a member:

The Russians produced two special firearms in the 1970s for their SPETzNAZ special Operations forces that were designed to be fired underwater. The 4 barreled SSP-1 pistol fired a 203 gr long pointed rod of about 30 caliber with a length/diameter ration of about 21:1, at a muzzle velocity of 820 f/s. It has a reported effective range of about 36-55 feet depending on the depth. There was also an APS gas operated rifle based on the AK 47 system with a 20 rd box magazine. It fired a similar projectile weighing 284 gr at 1197 f/s and has an effective range of 32 to 98 feet depending on the depth. Although they can be fired in air the accuracy is very poor because the projectiles are not spin stabilized.

I'd never heard of these guns. Does anyone have any further information on them - description, technical info, photographs, etc? Max Popenker - how about you? Did the US or other Western nations ever develop anything similar?

 

[KriegHund]

Dunno, but H&K makes a special underwater pistol.

Although there is that specific gun and the one mentioned in your article in the game Delta Force 2. (BTW, if anyone playes that still be sure to look for my Tost server.)

 

[heypete]

Info about the SPP-1 is available here: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg140-e.htm (scary looking cartridges).

Info on the APS is here: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm (looks like a wacky AK-47). They say it could even be fired "in the air", but the lifespan would be greatly reduced. I can't imagine how much oil would be necessary to keep it from rusting...

 

[lunaslide]

H&K P11

 

[mete]

The HK P11 was in a movie with Angelina Jolie IIRC.

 

[Plumber576]

hkpro has some more good P11 info...

http://www.hkpro.com/peleven.htm

 

[Randy in Arizona]

There was an article in SOF years ago on the handgun for underwater use.
I don't remember when the issue was circulated.

IIRC the case was long and cylindrical. The base of the projectile was lightly bonded to a piston at the base end of the case. Upon firing the piston was forced to the shoulder, but no gas escaped when the projectile left the piston and barrel.

 

[GT]

James Bond used a revolver when he had to shoot underwater (Dr No - the novel - I believe)


G

 

[max popenker]

heypete, thanks for saving me couple of mouseclicks , but here's another link: underwater ammunition

 

[one-shot-one]

As I Remember

these could fire uw.
http://www.answers.com/topic/gyrojet

 

[armoredman]

There was a video recently of a Sphinz CZ clone firing underwater repeatedly at a wooden target several yards away, and putting holes in it...I guess that qualifies.

 

[heypete]

Just remember not to use hollowpoints -- I am under the impression that the water in the barrel would cause the bullet to try to expand before exiting the muzzle, causing major pressure spikes and possibly a catastrophic self-disassembly.

Even if HPs make it out of the barrel, the odd shap will cause rapid deceleration and imprecise aiming.

 

[PromptCritical]

Surprised no one mentioned a GLOCK with Mariner spring cups.

 

[max popenker]

Even if the ordinary pistol will fire underwater with no damage (such as Sphinx or Glock) it will be quite useless beyon a yard or two. The key is to hit farther targets
The key use of the sumberged demonstrations of Glocks and the like is to prove that the gun will not kaboom on user with the water in the pipe, such as after the rvier crossing or under the hard rain.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Randy in AZ, the cartridge you mention sounds like the one fired from the Soviet PSS pistol.

They aren't used for underwater, but for silent operation. They don't make much noise at all because all the gas is contained in the spent shell. An elegantly simple, yet ingenious design. The kind that makes you say "Oh yeah, why didn't I think of that!"

 

[p35]

One non- obvious point:
Firing a gun underwater is likely to cause serious ear damage because water transmits energy from the muzzle blast far better than air. Remember the Navy practice of tossing grenades into the water from fixed installations to kill potential enemy frogmen? Don't try it just for the fun of it!

 

[chopinbloc]

oops. i shot my glock a few times in the river just for fun and it actually seemed quieter - substantially quieter. it kinda turned the report from a loud crack to a muted thump. the water was pretty cloudy so i couldn't be certain how far the round went, but i'd guess about five feet, maybe a little more, but not much.
max, your link doesn't work.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Chopinbloc: I assume your head wasn't underwater with your glock? My understanding is that it's not the glock the goes kaBoom, it's your eardrums. Not recommended.

 

[one-shot-one]

don't know if

your eardrums are at risk, were did you get your info?
i'm not saying your wrong, but i scuba dive and while it is true water conducts sound better than water it also "scatters" it more (making it hard to determine the direction it came from. i have never "heard" a sound as loud as a gunshot while under though.

 

[dfariswheel]

The best source of info on underwater guns that I've found is in "Weapons of the Navy Seals" by Kevin Dockery.

This is a complete listing of all known SEAL weapons from knives, to pistols, to SMG's, to rifles, to light machine guns, to grenades and booby traps, to ........underwater weapons.

Described and pictured are weapons by HK and others, including some info on still classified weapons, and on how they are used.

 

[p35]

To be honest, I read it somewhere but haven't tried it myself. To be a little clearer, I was talking about shooting a gun when your ears are underwater; I'm sure if your head is out of the water it muffles the sound. Think about it, though- we all know (I hope not from personal experience) that an explosive in a body of water will kill fish and possibly humans at a considerable distance through shock waves. A gun's a smaller explosion but at less than arm's length. I could be wrong but I'm not volunteering to try it.

 

[chopinbloc]

geekWithA.45, i shot with my head in and out of the water. incidentally it was a model 27 and i discovered that with the remington umc i was using it took about a minute for water to penetrate the primer and deactivate it. otherwise the gun functioned fine. it didn't seem anywhere near as loud as it normally would have. i realize that the frequency could have been outside the range we can hear in but i didn't notice any hearing loss out of the water. i did experience an almost painful slap on the shooting hand and face from the shockwave. while it was educational and kinda fun i don't see any practical use. it is comforting to know that if a deranged robot zombie knocks me into a swimming pool, i ought to be able to fend him off at contact range, though.