Unscientific .40 vs 9mm results

[leadcounsel]

Took a .40 Glock 23, a 9mm Glock 17, and a 9mm CZ P01 to the test against an old scrap steel water heater.

First a few shots with a 9mm fmj G17 from ~40 feet. One penetration and a few dents.

Next a full magazine of .40 Speer hp at the same distance to a different area of the steel. Every shot punched through the front of the steel water heater. None penetrated the rear.

Next, more shots from the 9mm. It did not appear than any 9mms, other than one of the first shots, penetrated the steel.

And, finally, a few shots from a .223 AR15. These punched small holes through the front and larger holes through the back.

Not scientific by any means, but range trips like this make you re-evaluate your carry choices.

Had difficultly uploading pics due to size limits...

 

[Harley Quinn]

Why I have updated to the 357 Sig and the 400 Corbon. Penetration is a biggie, in the winter months many wear heavy clothing. The best of the bunch some mention is the 10mm as far as a pistol goes. Revolvers are many of the Mags. I was reading on the 40 super. Seems like it is not much more than a high pressure 400 Corbon.

If you shoot the 400 Corbon in a good strong barrel Glock Mdl 21 with a nice new barrel and a heavier recoil spring. I really don't see why the higher pressures are a worry 29,000 for the corbon 37,000 for the 40 super pretty much the same round, the barrel is the strength I'd think.
Being a better ignition and cleaner burner due to design I see the 400/40S as being a real winner. Plus they feed well. In CA I can only go for the 10 mag so they should feed fine.

Maybe someone can give me some, "good" or "bad" information regarding the last thought

 

[CraigJS]

I'll remember this if I ever have to kill a water heater..

 

[Harley Quinn]

It is a test of sorts and if you are firing into a veh that has a bunch of gangbangers who are shooting, I'd want something that would penetrate the doors and windows and still hit the bad guys

Or behind a door of a veh and using it for cover. It is a good test I think

 

[johnson_n]

How about trying some Speer Gold Dot HP 124gr +P.

 

[jmr40]

Saw something similar a few years ago shooting at empty steel 5 gal paint cans. .45 acp went in one side and rattled around inside the can. 9mm, .357, even .38's went all the way through.

 

[gallo]

It would be very hard to justify to a jury shooting at a moving car 40 feet away, with or without gangbangers.

And just to be party pooper, I'll quote what I've read many times posted here: "Shot placement, shot placement."

Get a FN FiveSeven.

What weight was the 9mm round?

Thx.

 

[Constantine-p89]

Next time do one on 45acp and 9mm.

 

[biscuitninja]

The human body is not the same as a waterheater. That being said, a large slow, fat bullet reacts well to flabby, pulpy people. I say try a Sig .357 as well as a regular .357. Then go on for some rifles.
Good luck
-bix

 

[leadcounsel]

Again it was unscientific.

I don't recall the bullet weights. The 9mm fmj ammo was inexpensive target ammo, probably 115 gr. and the .40 ammo was Speer hollow points, probably 160 gr.

I didn't plan on shooting the water heater when I went. In fact, I took paper targets and a staple gun. However, my friend and I found the water heater and decided to shoot it instead.

If I had anticipated it being there, I would have taken a variety of guns and ammo and tried to set up a more valuable test.

Considering the importance of penetration and the energy transfer, all things considered, the 9mm seemed rather weak compared to the .40 when the 9mm consistently just dented the steel and the .40 punched right through it.
Considering the 9mm ammo was fmj, I'm even more surprised it didn't penentrate when the .40 hp did. Experiments like this help me in chosing the best caliber for self defense.

I also shot the steel with a .22 and a .223. The .22 disintegrated and the .223 cut right through the steel. Using the same logic, the .223 would be siginifantly better than the .22 for self defense. And that logic is correct in the real world. The .223 is harder hitting, faster, and transfers more energy than the .22. The same applies to the .40 over the 9mm in this case.

It's a valuable insight as to the amount of energy a bullet will hit with against a human target. It's also a valuable insight as to what you can shoot THROUGH to hit a target. It's good for YOU to know what a bullet will and won't stop (many people are surprised that car doors or drywall in houses aren't bullet proof like they are in movies) and it's also good for YOU to know what your bullets will or won't punch through. I want to know that if I'm in a gun fight, I can shoot THROUGH the concealment or cover that my assailant has taken shelter behind. I also want to have a better idea of what I can safely take cover behind. I can name limitless scenarios where this is valuable information.

For instance, I've seen rifle bullets and handgun bullets punch holes through things that I would have thought would give good cover. As an experienced shooter, I liked shooting objects that would reflect real world concealment or cover to get an idea of how bullets react and what they will or won't penetrate.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, if I ever move to a neighborhood that has an abundance of water heater attacks, I'll get a .40. Second thought, I'll carry my .357 magnum.

 

[Nomad101bc]

Well compare the load sizes a 9mm round will fit inside a .40 S&W. and is less than half as long. I think .38 specail vs .40 s&w would be a more fair comparison.

 

[ZeSpectre]

(What caliber for water heater?)
Interesting test.
In the event of water heater invasion I'll stick with the 7.62x25 out of my CZ-52

 

[Erik]

Unscientific .40 vs 9mm results?

OK, two guys shot in the chest, upon looking down, laughed at one another remarking that they were glad the shooters didn't have .45s.

(Or that's thow the .45ers tell it.)

 

[Breakdaddy]

I would have loved to have seen some .45 results in your unscientific test. Either way, Ill bet it was fun plinking that old hunk of metal.

 

[Spyvie]

Try the test again with some premium 9mm and some FMJ .40 range ammo, and be certain that the structure behind the steel where the round hits is identical for both.

My own unscientific observation... 9mm ammo is cheaper and more plentiful than .40 cal.

The applainces I've had the most fun shooting have been old washers or dryers with an enamel finish, even with a .22. A large round chip in the enamel appears with every shot, sort of like those shoot-n-see targets.

 

[MCgunner]

Well compare the load sizes a 9mm round will fit inside a .40 S&W. and is less than half as long. I think .38 specail vs .40 s&w would be a more fair comparison.

The size of the case has much less to do with things than the SAAMI pressure limits assigned to the round. .38 is pretty low, even +P. 9x19 outperforms all safe .38 special loads on the market, at least in +P and +P+ and the standard load is a match for .38 +P out of a longer barrel. The .38 has a slight momentum advantage in 158 grain loadings. The .357 blows the .40 and the .38 and the 9 and the .357 sig right out of the penetration contest, though, especially with hot 180 grain loads. You wanna go water heater huntin', get yourself a .357 magnum.

Someday, I'm going to shoot this GD computer. I'm going to use a 12 gauge, though, unless I buy a 10 before that happens.

 

[redneckrepairs]

Not scientific by any means, but range trips like this make you re-evaluate your carry choices.

Actually they dont , but i do call them fun plinking if that helps

 

[KBintheSLC]

It is a test of sorts and if you are firing into a veh that has a bunch of gangbangers who are shooting, I'd want something that would penetrate the doors and windows and still hit the bad guys

Or behind a door of a veh and using it for cover. It is a good test I think

Actually, just about anything above a .22 will easily defeat any car door, and still have enough energy to do serious damage. A water heater is not like a car door. There is steel, ceramic, fiber glass, and lots of empty space. Not to mention that it is not flat, but cylindrical in shape. This test says very little to me about real life. Did the 9mm shots all hit dead center? If not, this may be why they did not punch through with the 9mm FMJ. The JHP's will be more likely to grab and punch through on an off center shot. If you are trying to advocate .40 over 9mm, you have much work to do.

 

[XDKingslayer]

I'll keep this in mind if my water heater ever revolts and takes my family hostage.

 

[-v-]

What KBintheSLC said. Also there's the fact that most 9mm target ammo is conical, whereas most .40 target ammo, JHP can be described as essentially truncated cones. The interesting thing with flat nosed projectiles (JHPs included) is that they will normalize when hitting an off-angle surface, and basically rotate to penetrate at 90 degrees to the surface thus maximizing penetration during oblique hits (http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=10&id=44&Itemid=64, see lower 1/4 of the page for description/analysis, and mathematics on how to calculate penetration) . Its one of those neat things that was discovered during WW2, namely why flat-nosed AT rounds seemed to penetrate sloped armor better then pointy ones. The FMJ 9mm probably just hit off center, put a dent in the heater and spizzled off to the side, killing a squirrel or something .

 

[JDGray]

I do alot of steel shooting, and my old standby steel shilouette that I normally only shoot with my 9mm's & 45s, really took a beating with my 40 The 9mm bullets don't leave any dimples in the steel, but the 40 cal sure did.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

Now if you can find a human being to test on. Don't tase me Bro!

 

[shooter429]

Nice. Thanks for the info. I have done similar tests with various media, so I would like to add that further, a 160 grain and 180grain jfp from a 4" .357 will penetrate twice as far as a 180 .40 jhp. What does it all mean? If you need penetration, better sectional density and more energy with proper bullet design will penetrate better. As many of you know I recently retired my .45 BUG in favor of a custom 23 and have been quite impressed thus far. I plan to carry a 5" .357 Sig in summer and keep 180s and 200 .40s for winter.

Thanks again.

Shooter429

 

[Pilot]

Again it was unscientific.

I don't recall the bullet weights. The 9mm fmj ammo was inexpensive target ammo, probably 115 gr. and the .40 ammo was Speer hollow points, probably 160 gr.

That's a big difference. You were comparing premium .40 ammo to inexpensive 9MM. I would think a good +p or +p+ 9MM would be close to premiuin .40 performance on your water heater.