Unsure and Confused; SBR vs Pistol

[berettaprofessor]

I'm afraid I've read too much and I'm seeing some contradictory stuff that has me confused.

Say you have a Ruger 22LR Charger standard with a 10 inch barrel. That is a pistol, I understand that.

Now you theoretically add a Picatinny butt adapter and an SB TF1913 side-folding brace. Length of pull is 13 & 3/8". Still good, I think, and still a pistol.

Overall length of our theoretical pistol with brace folded is right at 19" and just shy or right at 28" when the brace is extended.

So have you now made an SBR or not? I've read sources that say it is measured extended (and longer now than the legal limit of 26"), and others that say it's only the folded measurements that count, so this is still a pistol.

Which is it? And, yes, I know the best source of info is a personal lawyer, but I'd still like to hear the interpretations here.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think the grading form is No 4999

 

[berettaprofessor]

That's the "proposed" rules, I think. I'm wanting to know what it would be currently.

 

[bearcreek]

That's the "proposed" rules, I think. I'm wanting to know what it would be currently.

Currently, overall length has nothing to do with it. There's no maximum allowable length for a pistol.

 

[berettaprofessor]

So, bearcreek, you would say it's a pistol with a foldable brace and not an SBR in the theoretical build I described?

 

[bearcreek]

So, bearcreek, you would say it's a pistol with a foldable brace and not an SBR in the theoretical build I described?

Yes. Adding a brace to a pistol doesn't change it's status as a pistol. Overall length is irrelevant.

 

[12Bravo20]

Here is an article from 2019 on the ATF's stance on Length of Pull and Overall length. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-build-within-legal-limits/

Which states:

The LOP is measured in a straight line from the face of the trigger to the rear of the brace. The rear of the brace is taken at its most extended position (if adjustable). “The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock.”

In addition to length of pull, overall length (OAL) should be measured. OAL is considered from the base of the buffer tube to the muzzle. It can also be from the base of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle device if permanently attached. “An OAL greater than 26 inches [has the potential to change] the classification of pistol to firearm.

Now the ATF also changed their minds when it comes to measuring OAL with a folding brace and stated that the OAL is measured when the folder is in the folded position. Here is a good article explaining the change;

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/...ength-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

All of the above is out the window if the proposed rule change on arm braces does go into effect since the 4999 worksheet states that a braced pistol must be between 12 and 26 inches.

Yes I know all of this is clear as mud.

 

[dogtown tom]

Yes. Adding a brace to a pistol doesn't change it's status as a pistol. Overall length is irrelevant.

Are you kidding?
It sure as heck will be relevant once this regulation is implemented.

 

[bearcreek]

Are you kidding?
It sure as heck will be relevant once this regulation is implemented.

This regulation hasn't been implemented yet and the OP is specifically asking about how things are now, not how they might/will be in the future. I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong though. As things stand now, my understanding is that there is no maximum allowable length for a firearm that started life as a pistol. Is that incorrect?

 

[dogtown tom]

This regulation hasn't been implemented yet and the OP is specifically asking about how things are now, not how they might/will be in the future. I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong though. As things stand now, my understanding is that there is no maximum allowable length for a firearm that started life as a pistol. Is that incorrect?

Read post #7
I would think the OP wants to know ATF current method of measurement.

Soooo, currently, OAL is relevant and will continue to be relevant when the new regulation becomes effective.

 

[bearcreek]

Read post #7
I would think the OP wants to know ATF current method of measurement.

Soooo, currently, OAL is relevant and will continue to be relevant when the new regulation becomes effective.

So what is your answer to the OP's question?

 

[dogtown tom]

So what is your answer to the OP's question?

Read post #7

 

[bearcreek]

Read post #7

In other words, all of us are telling the OP the same thing. His theoretical combination is currently legal, yes?

 

[12Bravo20]

Overall length of the firearm, length of pull, and whether a folding device is used definitely matters even under the current rules. And depending on if the OP is measuring the length of pull correctly will matter also. He stated the LoP is 13 3/8" and anything 13 1/2" can be construed as an SBR. So if he made even a slight mistake on measuring the LoP, then YES it matters and he could possibly have what the ATF could consider a SBR.

And that is why I included the links in post #7. Personally I would not be relying on 1/8" to keep me out of trouble where the LoP is concerned.

 

[bearcreek]

Overall length of the firearm, length of pull, and whether a folding device is used definitely matters even under the current rules. And depending on if the OP is measuring the length of pull correctly will matter also. He stated the LoP is 13 3/8" and anything 13 1/2" can be construed as an SBR. So if he made even a slight mistake on measuring the LoP, then YES it matters and he could possibly have what the ATF could consider a SBR.

And that is why I included the links in post #7. Personally I would not be relying on 1/8" to keep me out of trouble where the LoP is concerned.

Length of pull I get. For the specific weapon described by the OP, why does overall length matter? The only thing I'm finding, (including in the link you posted) where that would matter is if he wanted to put a vertical foregrip on it. Did I miss something?

 

[mcb]

Are you kidding?
It sure as heck will be relevant once this regulation is implemented.

But until it is implemented it is completely irrelevant. The LOP thing was tried by the ATF in an Ohio case the judge threw it out of court. At this point we have no definitive information on what these new regulations will look like. The form 4999 is but one of several possible out comes. We will not know what the new regulations for braced pistols are until late December by most estimates. Once we have those regulations, if things run as they normally do, we will have 120 day to come into compliance with the new brace regulations.

 

[berettaprofessor]

So if he made even a slight mistake on measuring the LoP, then YES it matters and he could possibly have what the ATF could consider a SBR.

Well, I think I know how to measure it correctly so I'm...almost....comfortable with it. But, in the end, I decided against the assembly; just don't want to either lose sleep over it or chance losing my dog.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The OP has decided what to do.