AR pistol brace used on other platform?

[WestKentucky]

This whole brace mess has the shooting world torn up. I was planning to buy one a week ago but all of the mess cranked up, now it’s died down again so who knows what the future holds. Meanwhile, I have been reading a few of the ATF determination letters for braces and there’s language that jumps out at me... they specifically reference AR-15 or “ar15 type” pistols regularly. Does the determination letter still carry any legal weight when the brace is used on a firearm of a different type? Specifically I want to put one on a Contender with proper attachments to take an AR buffer tube, preferably the folding adapter variety, but this would also be applicable to things like Charger pistols, Draco pistols, and a few other larger format handguns. I have attached a scanned ATF determination for one of the cheaper no-name braces that contains the funky language.

 

[troy fairweather]

I've seen one on a shockwave looked cool, don't know the legality but I'd like to get one now.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I’ve seen plenty on Chargers and have debated building one. You can use it. It just has to be an actual pistol receiver and pistol length barrel. As far as I know, none of the aftermarket 10/22 suppliers build pistol receivers so a receiver would have to be marked Charger. Makes ID very easy at least.

 

[mavracer]

Ultimately with "all the pistol brace hullabaloo" the ATF doesn't make laws it only says how they're interpreting law. As to braces on other platforms there are several available.
Right now their opinion is that you can put a pistol brace on any pistol and it's still a pistol. They want to change that but are having issues because it was idiotic to leave SBRs in the NFA when they took handguns out in 1934, technology has made the idiocracy of it worse.

 

[mavracer]

I’ve seen plenty on Chargers and have debated building one. You can use it. It just has to be an actual pistol receiver and pistol length barrel. As far as I know, none of the aftermarket 10/22 suppliers build pistol receivers so a receiver would have to be marked Charger. Makes ID very easy at least.

My 22 Charger with brace, red dot, binary trigger and suppressor is as much fun as you can have with clothes on.

 

[jmorris]

This whole brace mess has the shooting world torn up. I was planning to buy one a week ago but all of the mess cranked up, now it’s died down again so who knows what the future holds.

A tiny part of it, seems lots of folks were in the, “I read the righting on the wall, when they first came out.” group like the folks that didn’t care about the no new laws written, elimination of bump stocks.

Others that had them were obviously not happy about buying something that was legal and subsequently having to destroy it without any compensation. I think they may be life long voters now.

I think, if you want one, you should get it, order it right now. We don’t know if they will be legal next week or if we will be alive next week. If I had access to a crystal ball, the future of the brace wouldn’t even make the list of things I would want to know. I wouldn’t let that stop me from buying one, if I wanted one though.

 

[billtool]

Buy one. If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week. Draw a line. I have.

 

[WestKentucky]

I think, if you want one, you should get it, order it right now

I did exactly that last night a few minutes after midnight. The brace that I included the ATF forms for was on sale for 24.99 and had a free 2 day shipping coupon at Optics Planet so now it’s on the way. I will use it on at least my contender, likely I could fab up a decent mount for my buntline and if I were to buy a junk stock for my chipmunk I could put one there. I may just go ahead and do that. Plastic chipmunk stocks are cheap and 1.25” tube is plentiful at work (we make tube and there’s plenty scrap).

 

[bearcreek]

I’ve seen plenty on Chargers and have debated building one. You can use it. It just has to be an actual pistol receiver and pistol length barrel. As far as I know, none of the aftermarket 10/22 suppliers build pistol receivers so a receiver would have to be marked Charger. Makes ID very easy at least.

There's no legal maximum barrel length for a "pistol" and there's no law that says you can't put a brace on a rifle, so it does not need to be a pistol length barrel or pistol receiver.

 

[bearcreek]

Buy one. If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week. Draw a line. I have.

Why though? If they're made illegal, there are better options. Might as well just use a real stock.

 

[WestKentucky]

Buy one. If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week. Draw a line. I have.

If I’m reading your post correctly I take it that your suggesting not registering if the Buteau of All Things Fun and Exciting decides to excuse the $200 fee and expedite the process that you would sit back with your arms crossed and refuse? I get the point of drawing a line and not crossing it, but there’s a limit to being intelligently stubborn.

 

[mavracer]

If I’m reading your post correctly I take it that your suggesting not registering if the Buteau of All Things Fun and Exciting decides to excuse the $200 fee and expedite the process that you would sit back with your arms crossed and refuse? I get the point of drawing a line and not crossing it, but there’s a limit to being intelligently stubborn.

Yeah I already have a trust with form 4s, free form 1s sign me up please.

 

[jmorris]

If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week.

I wouldn’t do that. I figure that’s what they would want, so they could take the rest away from you.

 

[mavracer]

Buy one. If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week. Draw a line. I have.

If you've already drawn a line why would you buy a $100 brace just put a $15 stock on it?

Oh yeah and

 

[bearcreek]

I wouldn’t do that. I figure that’s what they would want, so they could take the rest away from you.

Everybody has a line. Yours is just further down the road than others.

 

[jmorris]

Everybody has a line. Yours is just further down the road than others.

True enough, condoning breaking the law in a public forum, is definitely across it.

 

[bearcreek]

True enough, condoning breaking the law in a public forum, is definitely across it.

I didn't condone breaking the law though, did I? No different than condoning hiding members of certain groups if the government (in the future) was rounding them up and sending them to camps.

 

[Space Ghost]

This count? I did this up for a raffle at the VFW. Liked it so much, I made myself one when I didn't win... Mine has a folder on the stock.

 

[billtool]

If you've already drawn a line why would you buy a $100 brace just put a $15 stock on it?

Oh yeah and
View attachment 965286

Because I want the brace. I don't want a stock. The line I've drawn is being finished with control over my rights by unelected GS-11's.

 

[Space Ghost]

If you've already drawn a line why would you buy a $100 brace just put a $15 stock on it?

Oh yeah and
View attachment 965286

Their laws are stupid. Every one of them are unconstitutional, yet we go along with them to stay out of trouble. We put a brace on our stuff to make these stupid laws work for us. As a "pistol" our braced weapons are covered by handgun laws, rather than rifle laws. In many cases, and most states, that gives us more freedom with them. I personally would MUCH rather have a real stock, but that's taxable, and has to be registered as an SBR, so I have just the one.

 

[mavracer]

Their laws are stupid. Every one of them are unconstitutional, yet we go along with them to stay out of trouble. We put a brace on our stuff to make these stupid laws work for us. As a "pistol" our braced weapons are covered by handgun laws, rather than rifle laws. In many cases, and most states, that gives us more freedom with them. I personally would MUCH rather have a real stock, but that's taxable, and has to be registered as an SBR, so I have just the one.

I agree on both counts, it was dumb to leave SBRs in the NFA when they left handguns off, 80 years of technology has exasperated the stupidity. Heck it took a big hit the next year when the 357 and the BHP moved the bar on power and capacity.

He said he'd already drawn a line, it would just seem that these folks that say "I will not comply" should already have an unregistered SBR with an auto sear.

I would like to see SBRs taken to SCOTUS IMHO Miller and Heller's common use would prevail.

 

[heyjoe]

Buy one. If they become illegal next week - become an outlaw next week. Draw a line. I have.

have you ever been inside a prison or even locked up before? you might change your mind

 

[Frank Ettin]

Their laws are stupid. Every one of them are unconstitutional,....

But your opinion on such questions doesn't count. No one cares. The Founding Fathers assigned the authority to decide what the Constitution means and how it applies to the federal courts (Article III, sections 1 and 2):

Section 1. The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....

Section 2. The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,...

Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and understood what judicial power is. In fact, of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers: and of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

See also:

• Hamilton in Federalist No. 78:
  

  ....If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their WILL to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, ....

  
  
• And Madison in Federalist No. 39:
  

  ....the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated....

And not the Constitution, nor any law, is self executing. Laws are tools used by courts to decide matters. The meaning and utility of laws comes from their use by courts for that purpose.

The reality is that our Constitution has served as a governing document of this republic for over 200 years. We've survived a panoply of travails, including civil war, economic ups and downs, an assortment of lousy elected officials, and some really lousy laws (like Prohibition) -- and yet we endure. From The Wall Street Journal, "The Culture That Sustains America’s Constitution", 2 July 2018:

Since 1789 the average life span of national constitutions world-wide has been 19 years, according to scholars at the University of Chicago. Meanwhile, “We the People of the United States” are now well into the third century under our Constitution. We’ve lived under the same written charter longer than any people on earth. We’ve had regular federal elections every two years, uninterrupted even by the Civil War....

 

[Styx]

The solution is to do nothing. Follow the gun laws no matter what. If Biden and Dems pass some laws that we think are unconstitutional, and liberal judges says it is constitutional, turn in your guns and peacefully abide by any laws that pass. That my advice, and the advice I'm sure THR will cosign.