Update Cincy man who shot 14 yr stealing car

[poppy]

Here is the article in today's Cincinnati Enquirer about the announcement yesterday. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061118/NEWS01/611180383
The bottom line: the man was not charged, because it was determined that he acted in self-defense. This is not over, of course, because it did involve a young boy and the CCW debate will probably intensify.

 

[El Tejon]

I don't see how?

A teenager attempts to kill a man with a deadly weapon. The man kills the teenager with his own deadly weapon.

Sends a powerful message to that part of the community in the city: do not screw with the citizenry or you will be shot dead. The talk of Mr. Hall of "I didn't know he was 14 and would have taken the hit if I knew" is exactly what his attorney should be telling him to say, if he says anything (which I would have told him "no, none, absolutely no interviews").

How is this different than when alleged perps attempt to run over police officers?

He's 14, O.K., he is still attempting to kill Mr. Hall. 14 or 44 the Prosecuting Attorney deems it a justifiable homicide. I see no reason for any impact other than positive to the "CCW debate."

 

[up_onus]

This is a great story...
with all good there is a bit of bad, 14 is a bit young to be stealing cars. Where was mom and dad?

But, he was not convicted!!!

IMO this comes back to the idea, "an armed society is a polite society", if everyone was armed...people might think twice about being stupid.

 

[mole]

"If he was trying to use the car as a weapon, then I can accept this," Champion said.

At least the boy's grandmother isn't trying to make him out to be an innocent little angel like so many other families do.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So, let me get this straight ... the neighborhood is going down the toilet, the street is being taken over by drug dealers, and our hero goes out and starts the car and then leaves it running with the keys in the ignition while he goes back in the house to finish his coffee? Sheesh.

I don't have a problem with the shoot, but this dude is a few bricks short of a load in the common sense department.

 

[WeedWhacker]

starts the car and then leaves it running with the keys in the ignition

Traditionally, motor vehicles cease to operate if the keys are removed from the ignition switch...

Ohio isn't a desert - November in North America can bring low temperatures.

Was it the wisest choice? Is letting your own vehicle idle on your own property during a cold winter uncommon? Was it then the man's fault the 14 y/o chose to commit a crime?

 

[gr8cook]

Multiple Responsibility

A situation can have multiple people at fault. What is more, when two parties are in error, one party's mistakes do not necessarily mitigate the responsibility of the other party.

A man left his car running. Is anyone surprised that someone tried to take the car?

A punk stole someones car and tried to run its owner down. Is anyone surprised the owner shot him?

I think I would get two keys and lock the car if it needed to be left running.

Cook

 

[Riktoven]

I wonder if I should dig up the thread where half of this site's members were villified for thinking the kid got what he deserved.

I stole a beer keg once as a kid. I knew it was wrong. If I had been shot in the process it would have been a stupid way to die, but one I brought upon myself. Cars tend to be a lot more important to people, especially poor/ lower middle class people such as myself.

Kudos to the Cinci DA for sending the right message to society.

 

[Coltdriver]

So the next question is can the shooter be sued by the 14 yo's family for wrongful death??

 

[meef]

Riktoven

I stole a beer keg once as a kid. I knew it was wrong. If I had been shot in the process it would have been a stupid way to die, but one I brought upon myself.

Wellll..... if you had tried to kill somebody with the keg, maybe.

Otherwise, I couldn't quite see it as a righteous shoot.....

 

[MICHAEL T]

Well be glad its cold outside. Given Cincy history if warm weather would be roiting in the streets .
Kid stold car tried to run owner down got shot and died. End of story end of a want to be criminal. Would have cost taxpayers 1000's during his life in court cost and prison time. Good shooting

 

[4v50 Gary]

So the next question is can the shooter be sued by the 14 yo's family for wrongful death??

You betcha. It's not a matter of whether the relatives of the deceased have a chance to win, but rather how much it would cost to defend oneself and is it cheaper just to pay out of court? That's the disgusting thing about the tort system. If there's no tort reform, the defendant should be able to countersue the plaintiff and plaintiff's attorney for the cost of defending himself.

 

[Wholio]

The prosecutor did not take the case against the shooter to the grand jury. Still civil case to follow.The kid had a lenghty record and had been out all night with his buds. Mother claimed he was just turning his life around.

 

[Biker]

Kinda reminds me of the old TV commercial admonishing people for leaving their keys in their cars, the message being "Don't let a good kid go bad".

Way I got it figured, good kids don't steal cars.

Biker

 

[Rev. DeadCorpse]

It's not a matter of whether the relatives of the deceased have a chance to win, but rather how much it would cost to defend oneself and is it cheaper just to pay out of court?

Disgusting that a Country like ours could fall so low.... When the legal system and "justice" are no longer synonymous, then the system needs to be reset.

"Justice" was the 14 yo perp getting ventilated by his intended victim. Anything else should be thrown out of court with prejudice.

 

[orionengnr]

Mother claimed he was just turning his life around.

...yep, guess that he took a day off from turning it around.

Poor choice on his part.

 

[Lupinus]

guess he took a day off from turning it around to turn someone else's car around, go figure.

Sad a kid dies whose real fault is often the parents. But you know then I still wont shed a tear over it. If being a criminal in this country wasn't such a safe occupation less people would do it, and more of those who do wouldn't be a problem much longer. Don't break into my house or steal my car and I wont shoot you, to me that sounds like a pretty fair arrangement in my book.

As to the people in the don't shoot over property crowd well why the heck not? We aren't talking stealing a few apples from old man wagners apple orchard here. We are talking property which totals into the hundreds and even more likely thousands of dollars. If its a decent used car or new car into the tens of thousands. Aside from a house a car is one of the biggest investments of personal property most people will have, and also one of our most needed. I don't have my car I can't go to work, to the store, anywhere but someplace in walking distance and for me the store and the job are not in walking distance. No car means no job, no job means no money, no money means...you can see where this is going. Sometimes a piece of property is also your means to a lively hood. A carpenter or mechanic has thousands of dollars worth of tools which many can't just replace and some more specialty tools may not even be replaceable. So yes, beyond simple petty theft of stealing an apple or a figurine from a yard or something, you should be able to shoot.

As to leaving your car running, it gets cold this time of year most places so you should be able to ride in some level of warm comfort. Beyond that how many have had older cars? To run worth a damn how many had to be warmed up first? Not everyone can afford a new or very like new car. I personally keep a spare door key tucked into my wallet, both so I can leave it running if need be and still lock the door or incase I happen to lock my keys into the car....again

 

[Big Calhoun]

That story was a good read. A tragic situation, but a good read. I found the closing sentences referencing vigilantieism (sp) very poignant. It seems that's the first thing people assume about a SD shooting; the shooter was looking for trouble. Here you have a regular guy that acted purely on instict and in retrospect, would have acted differently having known the full situation.

Just very poignant to me...shows the real element, the human element of a SD shooting.

 

[Manedwolf]

Amazing how the ones who were always "good boys turning their lives around" are involved in armed robbery, grand theft, deadly assault, etc, etc...

Unfortunately, the way our justice system is, they only get put away for a long time if they actually manage to kill someone...not just if they tried.

 

[StiKiller]

I don't care what age the person is, I'm sure the shooter just said he would have "laid down" if he knew the kids age, forget that, he did good, one less thief in this world. Good job!

 

[Wyndage]

I may not have had a driver's license at fourteen years of age, but I certainly knew right from wrong, and that every action has a consequence. Sometimes a fatal one.

I don't want to sound as if this kind of situation isn't tragic (death usually is), but I don't see how the age of the perpetrator is really relevant. If you behave as an adult—good or bad—expect to be treated like one.

 

[Correia]

I wonder if I should dig up the thread where half of this site's members were villified for thinking the kid got what he deserved.

Point of order. The initial news reports had nothing to do with shooting in self defense, only about shooting over property. The initial thread in S&T was closed, rightfully so, and then a poster started another thread about killing over property only.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

The kid forced the guys hand when he came at him with the car. Shame, now the poor will have to live with that for the rest of his life, and it may well be drug out in civil court to boot.

 

[jondar]

Quote: "But I don't see how the age of the perpetrator is relavant." True.

When I worked in Kansas City, the agent I learned most from and worked most with was an African American who was born and raised in the ghetto and put himself thru college by driving a cab at night. He lived only three blocks from where we worked and one night walking home he was accosted by three youths, twelve or thirteen years old, two flanked him, one a little in front of him. They were grinning and chuckling, the one in front pulled a knife and opened the blade. The agent simply produced his weapon and let them see it. They took off in three different directions. I asked him, "If push came to shove would you have shot the one with the knife?" He said, "Look, you better grow up, a twelve year old can kill you as quick as a thirty year old."

I never forgot that.

 

[DirtyBrad]

There's nothing at all in the article about civil proceedings. Just the opposite, the kid's grandmother seems amazingly level-headed about it. All she was upset with was the police not communicating with her. She said if the kid was using the car as a weapon, she could accept what happened.

Seems like every time there's a defensive shooting that's viewed as a good one, every other comment is about how the poor shooter will be sued into oblivion by a greedy family and be bankrupt for protecting his life. I've seen more of those comments than I can remember, but don't ever remember reading an account of it happening.