"Upgrading" CCW; looking at two; help?

[ArmyAviator]

Currently carry Kel-Tec P3-AT .380 OWB in Fobus paddle-style; looking for bigger; not necessarily more rounds. I like the looks of the European American Armory (EAA) Tangfolio Witness Compact...comes in .40 and .45; Para Ordinance has a 1911 and "Wart Hawg" and "Night Hawg" in .45. The EAA is DA; Para are SA. I've never carried SA, professionally or privately. I like 45 ACP.

I know one cannot go on looks, therefore I'm asking for reputation of either/both.

And, how do most carry a SA? One in the pipe, hammer down, safety on...?? One in the pipe, hammer cocked, safety on?

Believe it or not, in training with the Israelis @ IMI, we were taught handling with the Jericho 9mm with nothing in the pipe...we were taught to chamber upon drawing the weapon.

Lastly, what about 45 ACP vs the 45 GAP...?? I would surmise availability and $$ of ammo....??

Lotsa questions here.

--Bryant

 

[cobrian45]

I love .45 ACP. I also don't know much about the GAP ammo so I can't compare. I do know that Para 1911s are really good guns. I've carried a 1911 for quite a few years and always carried it chambered, cocked and safety on. You'll get a lot of posts here saying that time is not your friend when you need the gun and they'll be right. Racking a slide can be the end of you. Thumbing a hammer back in a stress situation will slow you down at best. It doesn't seem very safe to me and could cost a broken thumb with an AD under those conditions. Good holsters will protect your safety and if you have good training and don't play with your gun you will be fine. You'll also find that most training you will see is set up for a ready to fire scenario. The only training you'll get from serious shooters on chambering a round is making the gun ready to holster or on the reload. I can't say I've seen training that teaches chambering a round after drawing to engage a target.

As far as carrying with an empty pipe for the Israelis, I speak from no professional experience but can only imagine that handguns were backup firearms to a long gun. I am hypothesizing here because I have a lot of respect for Israeli tactics since they are using it all the time in the real world. This handgun will be your primary and you will need it immediately, not as a go to if your rifle fails or runs out of ammo.

 

[loop]

I have a Tanfoglio Witness in .45 acp, but its the full size version. Mine performs flawlessly and shoots to point of aim. An interesting option on the Tanfoglios is that you can get conversion kits to allow you to take your .45 frame and add a slide and mags to convert to 10mm, .40 S&W, 41AE, 38 super, 9mm and more...
It is very popular in Europe where it may be difficult to get more than one gun, but competition shooters want to participate in multiple calibers. Incidentally, Tanfoglios have won the past five IPSC open class Eurpoean championships
I carry mine with the safety off and one up the pipe in DA mode.
I really like the Hawg, but won't get one until I can get a good deal on it. If I'm going to spend the kind of money Para wants for the Hawg I'd get a Kimber or build a gun myself.
I carry 1911s cocked and locked and am not the least bit reluctant to do so.
re: .45 GAP - It has no advantage over a .45 acp other than being slightly shorter, if that is an advantage. It was designed for Glock to yield .45 acp performance out of a shorter cartridge. Why go with something that is trying to equal a more common, cheaper and time-tested product?

 

[MICHAEL T]

Colt Defender or new Agent. The have good track record as relieable and after market is waiting if you desire.
I carry Agent or Defender most of time and Kel Tec in pocket where it belongs as BUG.

 

[mgregg85]

No offense, but a P3AT seems like a weird gun to be carrying OWB. Did you originally intend to pocket or IWB carry it or did you buy it intending to wear it on your hip all along?

 

[ArmyAviator]

None taken, mgregg85. I didn't realize any gun would be considered "wierd" if worn OWB, save a Sharps.
Nonetheless, my decision was "dual purpose"...of sorts. I dislike IWB;period; necessitates, to me, at least another "half step". Fobus, among others, make some very nice OWB holsters specifically for P3-AT; added weirdness, perhaps. I wear a Fobus; then in baggier and cargo pants, into a simple Uncle Mike's and it's in my pocket. Many regard .380 as BUG worthy only; my experience, though not exclusive, is presentable in that save a narcotic-crazed assailant, punching a little hole in someone tends to completely reshape their agenda, theretofore; I've been in attendance with some well-focused combatants who did so after such a greeting.

Cobrian, I truly wish I could tell you that carrying the pipe empty among the Israelis was in deferrence to a long gun; twas not in my experience; they take considerable pride in the flash of racking one into the pipe, but offer no challenge to what is to be done when you take the first round...in the shoulder. I am a graduate of their acadamy @ Beersheva and hold them in equal regard.

Thank you all, as always, for your considerate and substantial replies. Always helpful, and unalloyed.

--Bryant

 

[massglockman]

i own and carry a para warthog and i must say that its quite powerful in such a small package its a bit fat on the handle but you gotta be to fit 10 in there i just bought a colt new agent so i might start carrying that

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

And, how do most carry a SA? One in the pipe, hammer down, safety on...?? One in the pipe, hammer cocked, safety on?

Absolutely. IMO it is the only way to carry safely (a relative term when talking about something dangerous) while still instantly ready for action.

I didn't realize any gun would be considered "wierd" if worn OWB ...

I though it was, if not weird, at least an odd choice myself. It is no harder to carry a more substantial gun this way than a little gun whose "niche" is deeper concealment. But that's the purpose of this thread, to upgrade.

I have no experience with the guns you are looking at. But I would add, as a possible alternative if you don't like "cocked and locked" carry, that Para guns of the same general size are available in a short-stroke double action only called LDA.

 

[worthirt_99]

I agree with Haranguer, if you don't like to carry one "cocked and locked" with the safety on. Go with SA/DA or a DAO.

 

[ArmyAviator]

So, Haranguer & worthirt....browse the Para Ordance line and look for "LDA"....what does that stand for....limited double action..??

I'll go browse.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

The Para has a higher ammo capacity with a more potent round. The Kel-Tec is more concealable and easier to control the recoil but you get less rounds in the mag. For a primary weapon I would go with the Para. The Kel-Tec would be a great back-up. Definitely go with .45 ACP over .45 Gap for the cost alone. Until the GAP becomes more mainstream (if it ever does), it will not be cost effective to shoot. Also you can't buy the 250 packs of yellow box ammo for the GAP.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I think the L is for Light. It is only about a 6 lb. pull. I don't know if it has a "roll" like a revolver or a long sweep with a break at the end like a Springfield XD. These guns still have manual safeties in the conventional location, to be used or not as you desire.

 

[another okie]

You might also look at the Glock 36 or the Kahr .45.

 

[worthirt_99]

Army, just for ref if you don't know already, I'm sure you do though. An example of a SA/DA is the M9. Never owned a DAO (double action only)

 

[MachIVshooter]

My witness 10mm is my primary carry gun. 11+1 rounds of this sledgehammer cartdige had better do the trick. I carry 4 O'clock IWB with a homebrew leather holster, and a vest or jacket isa must for me, as I wear relatively form-fitting clothes. My summer carry is my PF9 or P3AT.

Be forewarned, the Witness compact isn't really that compact. overall dimensions and weight are roughly the same as a S&W 5906/4006.