USA: "VPC Applauds Introduction of 'Terrorist Firearms Detection Act of 2003

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from PR Newswire

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031022/dcw038_1.html
Violence Policy Center Applauds Introduction of 'Terrorist Firearms Detection Act of 2003'

Wednesday October 22, 11:31 am ET

WASHINGTON, Oct. 22 /PRNewswire/ -- In response to the introduction today of the "Terrorist Firearms Detection Act of 2003" by Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA), the Violence Policy Center released the following statement by Legislative Director Kristen Rand:

The Violence Policy Center (VPC) today applauded Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA) for introducing the "Terrorist Firearms Detection Act of 2003." Without Congressional action, the federal ban on non-detectable firearms -- non-metallic handguns that can evade airport metal detectors and X-ray equipment -- will expire by the end of this year. The ban, signed into law by President Ronald Reagan in 1988, and renewed by President Clinton in 1998, is a front-line defense against terrorist attacks against airliners and facilities that rely upon detection technology. Before this ban was enacted in 1988, the gun industry was on the verge of manufacturing handguns that could evade airport security equipment. Senator Kennedy's bill would make the ban permanent. If Congress fails to renew the ban, air travelers will face the threat of being held hostage to a new generation of undetectable handguns. In the name of "homeland security," Senator Kennedy's bill should be swiftly approved by both Houses of Congress for President Bush's signature.

The Violence Policy Center is a national non-profit educational organization working to stop gun death and injury in America. For more information, visit the VPC's website at www.vpc.org.
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Oh, Christ.

The worst terrorist attack in U.S. history involved box cutters, and the VPC is worried about "plastic guns?"

Some days, I want to weep for the future of the U.S.A.
 
They don't exist?! But I saw them in Die Hard 2 and in In the Line of Fire! They must be real!

They can't reliably stop real guns from being taken onto planes. Why on earth are they worried about less-reliable undetectable firearms?

As far as I know it's easier to smuggle zip guns and cell phone guns onto planes than it is to get real guns onto planes, and there's plenty of evidence the latter has been successful. Since zip guns and cell phone guns actually exist, why is there no outcry over them?

Has anyone here seen an undetectable (ceramic and/or plastic barrel, I suppose) firearm? Ever? Even in a museum?
 
Hmm, this got me interested since it has a sunset clause like the AWB.

The original bill was HR 4445 in the 100th Congress. Evidently there was a competition among the usual suspects as to whose "plastic gun" bill would become law. The winner was one introduced by Rep. Hughes -- the same Hughes responsible for the machinegun ban amendment to FOPA.

The extension in 1998 was passed on voice vote as an amendment to an appropriations bill. The amendment simply changed the sunset terms to 15 years instead of 10.

I wonder what will happen with this bill. Can Kennedy can beat the drums loud enough for the rest of the Senate to care and pass his bill? Probably not, with everything else going on in Congress, so that leaves the appropriations route. Will the NRA fight it, or will they quietly let it in? If they do decide to fight it, it might be a dress rehearsal for the AWB fight.
 
I might get castigated for this but:

The NRA should get behind this bill and crow about their support.*

*After taking every precaution that no current or envisioned polymer pistol will be affected by the language in the bill. Maybe put in a timeline of diminishing metallic content minimums on the argument that detection technologies will only get better.

There is little harm in letting the antis ban something that will never likely exist. An all plastic firearm? C'mon, would you want to be the first on your block to enjoy the chamber failures and recoil that would be inherent to any "usefully powerful" design?

Chemical reaction ammunition requiring pressure proofed chambers is always going to require metal. Failing that, even science fiction advances in the ductility of ceramics are probably going to require ceramic compounds with mucho metallic content. As an additional point, the most viable "all plastic" pistol made in the future is likely going to be Mil/LEO sales restricted by BATFE anyways or be an energy weapon we can't have or afford. Given this community's aversion to batteries as it is, such a blaster would probably be rejected by the civilian market.:D

So let the antis have their ban of a fantasy gun classification that we all know does not exist and likely never will exist. First, you don't hand them a new high profile club going into the AWB debate. Second, you take away an old club they have been bashing us with for years rhetorically. Third, you get to show that the NRA is not "reflexively unreasonable." Fourth, when you stand firm on the AWB sunset, you get to say, "We gave you one you wanted, we're taking this cosmetic and useless ban in return."

But what do I know? I re-read The Prince every year and have Machiavelli whispering to me from his grave on this one.

"Princes must avoid the trap of trying to perfect their realms, for how we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation."

IOW, take their fantasy ban and beat them with it. It ought not exist, but it does. We should use its existence to our advantage and we will only lose the "terrorist pistol" PR battle post 9-11 anyways, (downfall versus preservation). The AWB is a much easier play against the "terrorist-friendly" charge as that ban can be demonstrated to have never done much in the first place other than inflate some prices and rigorous studies show it to be ineffectual against crime in any event.
 
Dear Congresscritter,

If you can explain how you expect executive-branch agents to enforce a ban on undetectable firearms, I might think it's just a terrible idea instead of a totally ridiculous, fear-mongering diversionary tactic to distract the people from the real matter of crime and terrorism.

Love,
Tyme.
 
I KNOW!!!

In the spirit of the anti-gunners, let's COMPROMISE!

The NRA, GOA, and all other Second Amendment supporters, in the spirit of true compromise, wil support a total ban on all-plastic firearms, in return for the Anti-Constitutionalists' support for having the AWB lapse!:D

Since no all-plastic firearms exist (and, as noted earlier in this thread, I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig relying on any prototypes), we will achieve a worthy aim at the cost of nothing. Isn't this how the Antis define "compromise"?
 
You guys are on to something. Let's conspire and spread rumors of all kinds of fanciful, non existent firearms being produced. The antis will be so consumed with chasing down plastic pistols and other chimeras that we can push our agenda through Congress with nary a protest!
 
I think Boats really nailed it on the head.

BTW, as long as we're getting the antis to pass bills about fanciful non-existant guns, lets get them to push through a ban on smart guns.
 
Two problems I see with that approach.

(minor) - The old 'undetectable firearms' law, as originally written, would have banned guns based not on how hard they are to detect, but on the mass amount of metal in their construction. Under X ounces of conductive metal, gun is illegal. I seriously do not want to see such a bill become law, for obvious reasons...

(major) - I disagree with Boats' assessment that capitulating to the antis on a small matter will allow us to stand firm on the big ones. Giving in without a fight on this issue will only encourage the anti-gun movement to redouble their efforts, not that we've proven that we can be co-opted.

- Chris
 
(major) - I disagree with Boats' assessment that capitulating to the antis on a small matter will allow us to stand firm on the big ones. Giving in without a fight on this issue will only encourage the anti-gun movement to redouble their efforts, not that we've proven that we can be co-opted
Click to expand...
It also would be one more precedent legitimizing bans on certain "scarey" classes of firearms -- remember, there also was no such thing as "assault weapons" either.
 
Some rebuttal.

First of all, "assault weapons" even if that is an anti coined term, did exist, insofar as whatever the antis were thinking about, they could point to real life examples of what they wanted to ban. In that sense, the AWB and the plastic pistol fantasy are completely different breeds of cat.

Secondly, the plastic gun ban exists now and it affects absolutely nothing. The fear of mimimum metal content restrictions has been asked and answered. Glocks, Steyrs, Walthers, XDs, Beretta 9000s, H&Ks and other polymer firearms can and do exist without coming within the ambit of that trash legislation. All that would need be done is to ensure the status quo.

Last, opposing this is a media loser for no perceptible gain. We already start as a disadvantage. This handicap is in the form of having to defend something that doesn't exist. It's like proving a negative. We aren't defending the existence of a scary gun, we'd be defending a figment of anti fantasy. They are trying to continue to ban a Hollywood, sci-fi, contraption that none of us owns, nor are any of us likely to own. I don't subscribe to as many gun rags as I used to, but I don't recall missing the all plastic pistol being on a recommended Christmas gift list.

By opposing this legislation rather than supporting and steering it, we would be losing a grand opportunity to de-fang the antis a little. Would they then back down on the AWB? No. However, we wouldn't have to be dealing with any baggage over "defending plastic terrorist guns" like we still get bashed as being rabid defenders of "cop-killer bullets" now. A little painless PR goes a long way in making the NRA look less extremist to the sheeple. Why not exploit the opening to get some cheap credit for being for common-sense gun safety legislation for the children?

It would provide some cover during the AWB debate in the media. Think about it.
 
If we _have_ to do anything with it, it's that we _have_ to point out that it's wasteful of our tax $$$ just by its very existence. It is like banning (and en$suring the enforcement of the ban) the sale and possession of living Dodo birds... There ain't any, but hey, there's gonna be someone collecting a government paycheck making sure that there isn't someone selling 'em or possessing 'em.
 
Boats,

Eh? I still see it as legitimizing bans of gun classes, fantasy or not, but, yeah, there are bigger fish to fry, and in any event, in this Congress, it's improbable that this bill will get to debate, much less vote.

But if it does get threshed out in committee, my favored course of action would be for our Sens to make a mockery of it. Just imagine a series of amendments outlawing any number of fantastical items and beings.

"The committee now will consider the amendment to ban pixie dust and flying carpets that are not detectible by metal dectors."

;)
 
Interesting.

I have to go down to the local courthouse to testify every couple of weeks and every time the detector goes off. Security guard regularly wands me and guess what, he "discovers" a zipper, belt buckle, shoe eyelets and fillings in the teeth. Perhaps they need to ban anything in clothing which could give a positive reading on a metal detector?
 
The Gyrojet pistol and carbine

This firearm could be made, with the possible exception of the firing pin, completely out of plastic.

22380264tn.jpg


Trying to find serious articles on the Gyrojet aren't easy because most of the hits you get on a search are to gaming pages as the gamers have picked up on the Gyrojet as a "futuristic" space weapon.

Some discussion pages:

MBA Gyrojet article index:

http://www.obscure-reference.com/guns/gyrojet/index.html

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1300/1360.htm

"Guns & Ammo" report on the Gyrojet pistol and carbine:

http://pub80.ezboard.com/fmbassociatesgyrojetpagefrm11.showMessage?topicID=8.topic

The Gyrojet made the cover of "Guns & Hunting" magazine:
gyrogh.jpg


The "Guns & Hunting" article is here:

http://pub80.ezboard.com/fmbassociatesgyrojetpagefrm11.showMessage?topicID=7.topic

There's even a Gyrojet discussion board at:

http://pub80.ezboard.com/fmbassociatesgyrojetpagefrm3

Several page detailed report on function and use of Gyrojet:

http://www.deathwind.com/review.htm
 
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