USAF revolver questions

[rlltdjpr]

I've got a couple of questions. We cleaned out my grandparent's home this weekend and my grandfather gave me his pistol belt from Vietnam (Air Force). He did a year out of Phu Cat with an EC-47 squadron. At the time, 1969-70, he was a Lieutenant Colonel. Were officers issued sidearms, or were they mostly personal purchase? The holster has the wear markings from a revolver with about a 4" barrel, and in his records he qualified with a .38. I would like to know what the standard USAF sidearm model was--maybe a S&W 15? Thanks in advance.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The Air Force issued S&W Model 15s during that time frame. That's probably what he carried.

 

[Gabby Hayes]

My brother-in-law was an Air Force captain in 'Nam in 1969. He was issued a S&W Model 15.

 

[Nightcrawler]

What differentiates a Model 15 from a Model 10?

Is it true that USAF SPs carried Model 19s for awhile? What other service use did .357 Magnum guns see?

 

[isp2605]

If any carried Model 19s it was a personal purchase weapon.
S&W Model 15 was standard issue for the USAF until the M-9 was adopted.
The difference between a Mod 15 and a Mod 10 is they're both K frames but the Mod 15 has adjustable sights. All the Mod 15s I saw in the USAF came with the wide target trigger and hammer. The Mod 10 can be had in either light or heavy barrel.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Air Force used some model 10's (K-Frame/Fixed sights) but more commonly issued model 15's (K-Frame/Adjustable sights) both blued with 4" barrels. Sometimes pilots carried personal weapons, but this was more likely in the Army. To my knowledge, neither the Army or Air Force purchased and issued model 19's (K- Frame/.357 Magnum).

 

[rlltdjpr]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[SixForSure]

I was a Security Policeman from 1974-1980. I spent several years of that in the armory. The Air Force also issued some Model 10 2" barrels to aircrews. In Alaska, where I was stationed they also issued S&W Model 29s to helicopter crews! As an aside, the standard issue round for the .38 was a 130 grain FMJ at an advertised velocity of 850 fps. One of our cops had occasion to shoot someone one night who tried to attack him with a knife. The bullet went through the pant leg, the flesh of the thigh, exited the thigh, but did not exit the pant leg in the rear. It probably gets the award for most anemic military round. The aircrews weapons were loaded with 3 short stops and three hollow points. The Geneva Conventions restrictions were circumvented by declaring the wepons as survival weapons and not combat weapons. The .44 mag rounds were cast smi-wadcutters.

 

[isp2605]

As an aside, the standard issue round for the .38 was a 130 grain FMJ at an advertised velocity of 850 fps.
(snip)
It probably gets the award for most anemic military round.

You aren't kidding there! They were the worst of all designs: relatively light weight, traveling at a slow speed, and a rounded bullet. We use to joke the USAF issued less lethal ammo.
Does anyone know the history of why on earth that rd was ever adopted? The FMJ is understandable. But 130 grs? And 850 fps? I never could find out why that particular rd.

 

[Tuffy402]

I had occasion to fly in Airforce One, but that is another story. At the time the President was not on it just some other politicians. As we prepared to land an AF EM put on his uniform jacket and i noticed he had a short barreled 38 in a shoulder holster. I couldn't tell the model but when i asked him about carrying he said it was standard issue to them.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

You aren't kidding there! They were the worst of all designs: relatively light weight, traveling at a slow speed, and a rounded bullet. We use to joke the USAF issued less lethal ammo.
Does anyone know the history of why on earth that rd was ever adopted? The FMJ is understandable. But 130 grs? And 850 fps? I never could find out why that particular rd.

Prior to adopting the Model 15, the USAF bought some S&W Model 12s. This was an Airweight K-Frame, i.e., aluminum frame. Also, the very first Model 12s had aluminum cylinders. Metallurgy in the late 1950s/early 1960s was not what it is today, and those guns were significantly less strong than steel K-Frames. They proved problematical so were withdrawn, but not before a wimp load was adopted and issued for them. Unfortunately, the wimp load stayed on as issue.

AFAIK, the USGI .38 Special load prior to the adoption of the 130 grain Ball was a 158 grain FMJ ball, basically a jacketed version of the old 158 grain LRN.

The only good thing about the 130 grain Ball load, which you can still buy from Winchester, Remington, and Federal, is that is has light recoil, so it's good for teaching newbies.

 

[AirForceShooter]

what were those chrome things the SAC security guys carried in cross draw holsters in the 60's? With stag grips no less

AFS

 

[SixForSure]

Prior to the adoption of the revolver, the USAF issued the 1911. If the ones you are refering to are revolvers they were probably the Mod 15s.

Dave Markowitz is right. I did run across a Mod 12 once or twice but as it has been nearly 30 years I had forgotten about them. I didn't handle flight crew weapons very often as I worked in the SP armory and we did not maintain or issue the weapons for the flight crews. The only ones that we got into the armory were from crews that were there from other bases for a short stay. They were required to check their weapons into the armory until their departure. I was not aware of the 158 grain loading, it must have been before my time.

Now for any of you that are the emotional types, STOP reading now. The MSgt that I worked for had been stationed at Robbins AFB in the early seventies. As Viet Nam was winding down the AF needed fewer and fewer weapons in inventory. One of his jobs was to supervise/witness the destruction of surplus weapons. Some bean counter had figured that to ship a new weapon to any particular base, do all of the paperwork, and ship an older one back to Robbins AFB (with the service life expectancy of the weapons figured in) was more costly than destroying new ones. He said on more than one occasion he had to stand and watch brand new Mod 15s being removed from the envelope they had been shiped in from the factory and thrown into a furnace!

 

[Old Fuff]

He said on more than one occasion he had to stand and watch brand new Mod 15s being removed from the envelope they had been shiped in from the factory and thrown into a furnace!

Oh great! ! !

Our tax dollars at work.

They couldn't possibly let a police department on a tight budget have them... :banghead:

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Now for any of you that are the emotional types, STOP reading now. The MSgt that I worked for had been stationed at Robbins AFB in the early seventies. As Viet Nam was winding down the AF needed fewer and fewer weapons in inventory. One of his jobs was to supervise/witness the destruction of surplus weapons. Some bean counter had figured that to ship a new weapon to any particular base, do all of the paperwork, and ship an older one back to Robbins AFB (with the service life expectancy of the weapons figured in) was more costly than destroying new ones. He said on more than one occasion he had to stand and watch brand new Mod 15s being removed from the envelope they had been shiped in from the factory and thrown into a furnace!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I hope whoever thought that one up burns in the pit.

 

[molonlabe]

In the Navy we carried 38 sp with tracer rounds.

 

[History Nut]

Mdl 15s and Mdl 19s

My late brother spent a year in Thailand bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail in B-26Ks. He was issued a .38 Spl Revolver, I think a Mdl 15 or 10 with 4" bbl. Before he went over there, he purchased a Mdl. 19 because it looked just like the issue Mdl. 15 on casual inspection. He took a quantitiy of .357 Mag. ammo for it with him. He told me he carried both the issue and his own revolver on missions and two homemade ammo belts with about 60 rounds of ammo on him. Fortunately, he never had to use either of them in anger. He did give me some issue .38 ammo after he got back. I agree it was very anemic. The most anemic was some tracer rounds. They looped downrange and would not make it all the way out of a rifle barrel! He told me the tracers were meant for signaling. You wouldn't fire them unless you could tell the ResCap your intentions because the standard response to unknown tracers coming up was to answer with bombs or guns! Shortly before his death, we were going through his gun collection to inventory it and I asked him if he still had that Mdl. 19 and he said he had sold it years ago. He commented that he wished he hadn't sold it as he realized it would have been nice to pass it on to one of his daughters with its provenence. Both his daughters are good shots as he raised them right.

 

[Dienekes]

Spent time as an AP/SP 1965-68 to include 1 tour SEA. Stateside sidearm was either the old 4" Victory Model (some with US Navy markings) or the Model 15, 4" and sometimes 2". Never saw anyone carry anything else and certainly not M19s.

Overseas the Model 15 was standard issue, with that awful 130 JRN load. I took over a box of handloads (150 gr cast Keith SWCHP with 12.0 grains 2400). If I thought it wise I would dump out the issue load and load up with those. Had a sort of bandolier made up that went around my waist under my shirt so if things went to hell I at least had a useful weapon in hand. Never needed them and left them over there.

I worked most of the time at tactical ops and got to know quite a few of the pilots (F-4s). 90% carried the same Model 15s but there were a few who had preferences; some 1911s and at least one BHP. Obviously they had some leeway whereas we didn't.

The USAF may be authorities on nuclear weapons but any kid with a hunter safety certificate knows more about small arms than they ever will. Come to think about it, that applies to more than one law enforcement agency, too...