Use of force from the perspective of the prosecution

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sgratra

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Inspired by the "Downsides to training?" http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=174628 thread which mentioned that the firearms training that a person goes through could get them in trouble in court if they were indicted.

What thoughts did you (or would you) go through in a situation where force is necessary? When I say thoughts I am thinking in terms of escalation of force. And how would you anticipate a prosecuting attorney to view them?

This thread should be taken with a grain of salt. It is not legal advice. Obviously a class is the best place to learn this stuff. If anyone has taken any classes that specialize in the legalities of lethal force please post their names and or links.

ShackleMeNot mentioned LFI in the previous thread - here is the link http://www.ayoob.com/lfi-1.html

I am at work right now so I will follow up with my thoughts later.
 
Preview I have never been in a situation that required the use of force. I have taken a few classes and from them, off of the top of my head (in a calm situation) I can recall the following points. These apply mainly to CHL.

1. Do not be the one that escalates the situation in any manner. (don't be aggressive, basically)
2. Always attempt to retreat before resorting to lethal force.
3. Do not shoot someone in the back or while they are attempting to get away.
4. Do not shoot to kill, rather shoot to stop.
5. Only use lethal force when your life is in danger or the life of a loved one. (at this stage in my preparation I would probably not intervene if I came across a violent situation that I was not a part of. Too many variables.)

When it comes to home defense:
1. always retreat to the safe room and call the police.
2. only fire to prevent direct harm to myself or family members.

I believe that if I follow the following rules I should be safe from prosecution if I were to ever use lethal force. I hope it is that simple...

EDIT: Never say never
 
Never say never.

Would you not shoot an intruder in the back if he was walking towards your infant daughter's bedroom with a knife in his hand?

___________

Another school: NRA Personal & Home Protection Course.
 
Okay, let me start by saying this is just educational, and not meant to be legal advice in any way. CMA. For those of you who have read my other posts, I am a prosecutor, and I have prosecuted murders in which firearms were used. I have also gotten a few cases involving firearms no-billed by the Grand Jury, but that's a different story.

In this county, a prosecutor is called out for any non-vehiclular homicide. Meaning, anything outside of a car crash. Unfortunatley, that's been changing to include car crashes, but again that's a different story. We're involved from the beginning through the end, whether that be a no-bill or the conclusion of an opened criminal case in Court.

When reviewing a homicide, the key points are the facts surrounding the shooting (or stabbing)? What led up to it? How did it go down? What's the relationship between victim and shooter? Who is the shooter? Who is the victim?

The thing that often strikes me about many of the threads on THR is when people wonder "will using my M-4 get me prosecuted in a home defense situation?" While I cannot speak for every prosecutor out there, let me say this. The facts of the shooting are the most important thing. If you shoot Charle Manson, Jr, who just beat down your front door with an ax and is coming at you and yours with the same ax, while you lock and load and the wife dials up 911, I'm not going to care if you used a suppressed, sawed-off, Barrett .50 BMG. The facts would show the shooting was justified. (You could pick up weapns charges if appropriate, but that's a maybe.)

However, you shoot your brother seven times during a fist fight, and the evidence shows that he was backing away from you, and you advanced on him, and kept shooting even when he's on his back, you could use a Sarah Brady special revolver loaded with Chuck Schumer designed and approved ammo, and I'm still going to indict you, and I'll probably get a conviction. (These facts from a real case, but involving a High Point .380)

Things like the gun used, the training taken, the type of ammo, are going to be way down the list of questions that need to be answered. Can they come into play at all? Sure. Do you need to worry about them? Not enough to avoid training and using only Barny Fife revolvers.

So, in the opinion of this prosecutor, use the gun you shoot best, with good quality ammo. Provided the gun is legally owned and possessed, and the ammo is legal, the facts of the shooting will rule the day.
 
I have a safe spot in my house (hard cover, high ground, fatal funnel to stack up multiple opponants). I'd certainly use it if I could because I think it would be a very effective defensive position but I don't count on it being accessible with the few seconds I expect to have for reaction.

Same goes for the phone. I'll be focused on determining the nature of the threat and defending my life not trying to figure out where my kid left the phone :banghead: or why there is no dial tone (line cut).

I'm not saying your plan is wrong for you, it just doesn't fit my situation well.
 
Move to Fl. We need more conservatives here anyway to much New York garbage is moving here. And then just follow the state self defense laws which give the right to defend yourself and not the right to run and hide first.
 
CAS - good input. Thanks.

Kodiaz - I am not from NY but could we possibly refer to New Yorkers by some other term than 'garbage'? They are fellow Americans. Thanks.
 
Actually, all BS stops at my front gate. Once on my property, I will not retreat.
Biker
 
Roadwild17 said:
What about the whole thing?

Wouldn't that leave a guy who is probably disabled trying to sue you for damages?

The same things you shoot in order to stop a person will often prove fatal. Your intent is not to kill; that would have you shooting a disabled (and possibly unconscious) person lying on the ground. Shooting to stop will leave the perp there.
 
WT said:
CAS - good input. Thanks.

Kodiaz - I am not from NY but could we possibly refer to New Yorkers by some other term than 'garbage'? They are fellow Americans. Thanks.


and some them are good law abiding liberals. :neener:
 
CAS700850 said:
So, in the opinion of this prosecutor, use the gun you shoot best, with good quality ammo. Provided the gun is legally owned and possessed, and the ammo is legal, the facts of the shooting will rule the day.
+1 from another career prosecutor.
 
CAS700850 said:
Okay, let me start by saying this is just educational, and not meant to be legal advice in any way. CMA. For those of you who have read my other posts, I am a prosecutor, and I have prosecuted murders in which firearms were used. I have also gotten a few cases involving firearms no-billed by the Grand Jury, but that's a different story.

In this county, a prosecutor is called out for any non-vehiclular homicide. Meaning, anything outside of a car crash. Unfortunatley, that's been changing to include car crashes, but again that's a different story. We're involved from the beginning through the end, whether that be a no-bill or the conclusion of an opened criminal case in Court.

When reviewing a homicide, the key points are the facts surrounding the shooting (or stabbing)? What led up to it? How did it go down? What's the relationship between victim and shooter? Who is the shooter? Who is the victim?

The thing that often strikes me about many of the threads on THR is when people wonder "will using my M-4 get me prosecuted in a home defense situation?" While I cannot speak for every prosecutor out there, let me say this. The facts of the shooting are the most important thing. If you shoot Charle Manson, Jr, who just beat down your front door with an ax and is coming at you and yours with the same ax, while you lock and load and the wife dials up 911, I'm not going to care if you used a suppressed, sawed-off, Barrett .50 BMG. The facts would show the shooting was justified. (You could pick up weapns charges if appropriate, but that's a maybe.)

However, you shoot your brother seven times during a fist fight, and the evidence shows that he was backing away from you, and you advanced on him, and kept shooting even when he's on his back, you could use a Sarah Brady special revolver loaded with Chuck Schumer designed and approved ammo, and I'm still going to indict you, and I'll probably get a conviction. (These facts from a real case, but involving a High Point .380)

Things like the gun used, the training taken, the type of ammo, are going to be way down the list of questions that need to be answered. Can they come into play at all? Sure. Do you need to worry about them? Not enough to avoid training and using only Barny Fife revolvers.

So, in the opinion of this prosecutor, use the gun you shoot best, with good quality ammo. Provided the gun is legally owned and possessed, and the ammo is legal, the facts of the shooting will rule the day.

I think this is good, sound advice. Thanks.
 
sgrata gave good points to consider in a generic manner that will keep you legal in most, if not all, states. CAS's sounds like most Georgia prosecutors.

Being aware of the law of the state you are in will certainly help. I don't know of any state that would require you to retreat in your own home from a forcible invasion. The tactical situation could well suggest it rather strongly, though.

Georgia has a statute about forcible entry that is only a couple of years old. It allows lethal force to be used on a person, who is not a resident of the home, who forcibly enters the home. There is no requirement that the invader be armed. Nor is there a requirement of being in fear of your life or grave bodily injury. The only requirement in the statute is that you feel that lethal force is necessary to prevent the commission of another felony

Take that for what it's worth from someone who is NOT a lawyer nor am I giving legal advice. I have simply read the statute and am aware of no case law regarding it. As far as I know, it has yet to be used by the defense in a homicide.
 
shooting to stop

is sumantics (sp?), meaning never "SAY" that you shot to kill only to stop.
is the b.g. is d.r.t. then you have stopped him.:cool:
 
sgratra said:
When it comes to home defense:
1. always retreat to the safe room and call the police.

With all due respect to you, Mr. Ayoob and other knowledgeable people I can't agree with this one. It's a good general procedure. It's not always the best one. There are times when "retreat to the safe room" is terrible advice. An important part of training is recognizing its limits.

If an innocent is injured or trapped in the "unsafe" area of the house or fighting the criminals I can't just run away and leave him or her. Maybe you can. I'd have to break every mirror I own.

Call the police? Eventually. But I'm not going to waste time talking and dividing my attention when a fight to the death at close quarters is quite possibly a second away. I can't count on the police being there in time to save me, so I need to be prepared to save myself and my family. Giving a description to the dispatcher and describing my house takes concentration. If someone is going to be shooting or knifing me I need to have all my brain cells pointed in one direction. Like so much else, I'll wait to phone until it's safe to do so.

If I believe I can resolve the situation immediately before the bad guy's intention is set and his plan for dealing with inhabitants is in motion I may do so. The two most recent burglary attempts at our house were stopped that way, one by me, one by the German Shepherd. Waiting until he was inside and had a chance to deploy whatever weapon he might have would, in my best judgement at the time, have been a mistake.
 
I never said all the New Yorkers coming to Fl are garbage. I just said we're getting a lot of New York garbage. But ok how about New York leftist totalitarian blissninny gungrabbing liberals. The only problem with that is I have carpal tunnel now and won't be able to shoot straight for 2 weeks now. Gonna have to put away the 1911 and pull out the scattergun.
 
Byron,

For what it's worth, I'm a prosecutor near Columbus, Ohio, not Columbus, Georgia, though I'm flattered by the fact that I sound like a Georgia prosecutor.

Chris
 
sgratra said:
These apply mainly to CHL.

1. Do not be the one that escalates the situation in any manner. (don't be aggressive, basically)
2. Always attempt to retreat before resorting to lethal force.
3. Do not shoot someone in the back or while they are attempting to get away.
4. Do not shoot to kill, rather shoot to stop.
5. Only use lethal force when your life is in danger or the life of a loved one. (at this stage in my preparation I would probably not intervene if I came across a violent situation that I was not a part of. Too many variables.)

When it comes to home defense:
1. always retreat to the safe room and call the police.
2. only fire to prevent direct harm to myself or family members.

I believe that if I follow the following rules I should be safe from prosecution if I were to ever use lethal force. I hope it is that simple...

EDIT: Never say never


While your rules may help keep you safe from prosecution, they may result in your death. I find it strange that people will perform activities non-essential to saving their lives because of some fear of prosecution. One's first concern really should be with self preservation and the preservation of loved ones, not being in fear of prosecution should you happen to survive.

Don't escalate the situation? The other guy may have a stick, rock or whatever and while I may not fear for my life, I may be in fear of grave bodily harm. Shooting the guy will hopefully stop him, but by shooting, I have escalated the situation to a higher level of lethal force. As they say, Peace Through Superior Fire Power.

Attempting to retreat before using lethal force is a bad standard plan. You probably should do whatever it is you need to remain alive, be that retreating, using lethal force, or stripping naked.

Why not shoot somebody in the back? Just how is it that you have determined that they are trying to get away? How do you know they aren't simply trying to retreat to a better position from which to kill you? If you are in fear of your life and the opposition is dumb enough to present you with an unguarded target, his back, it would be a huge blunder to not take advantage of his poor judgement.

Do not shoot to kill, but shoot to stop? Right. I want the guy to survive so that he can go to jail, get out, and hunt me down later when I am not expecting it. You shoot however you feel is necessary and you explain through your lawyer (if the lawyer deems it appropriate) that you were shooting to stop reguardless of whether you mentally made the decision to shoot to stop versus shoot to kill as the incident was unfolding. Simply put, you don't talk to the cops and so you don't tell them of your intentions. Regardless, if you have the right to use lethal force, your intentions are crimminally moot.

Use lethal force only when life is in danger? At least here in Texas, lethal force is justified for other things as well such as threat of grave bodily harm, intruders (armed or not), and a whole variety of other circumstances.

So in your own home, your first inclination is to retreat to a safe place and call the cops? While retreating to a safe place may temporarily remove you from immediate danger, that grace period may last only seconds if it lasts at all. You haven't dealt with the threat and since the threat is still present, you will continue to be in peril so long as the threat is present anywhere in your home.

Remember, there is always time later to call 911, but there may not be time to call 911 while you are being threatened. Mitigate the threat before directing your attention to non-immediate life saving activities such as calling 911. Even if you do call 911, you can't expect help to arrive very quickly unless you get lucky and there is an officer not busy with other business who is in close proximity to you when you call. 911 response times usually vary from very fast times of about 3 minutes to as many as 30 minutes with many major cities depending on how efficient the emergency response system is, how busy it is, and the proximity of responders to you. Most fall in the 5-15 minute range. If you live in a rural area, response times for emergencies can double simply because of your lack of proximity of available responding officers.

Don't kid yourself that an intruder in your home isn't a threat of direct harm to you or your family. He is likely more of a threat there than out on the street as when he is in your home, he has the benefit of seclusion and no bystander witnesses. In other words, he can work with greatly reduced fear of being spotted or caught so long as he is in your home.

You do what you have to do to survive. Hopefully it will be fully legal, but if you are dead, what does it matter? There is a good reason you should hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer deal with the potential legal problems. That is why he is paid the big bucks.

Putting threats of potential legal problems ahead of personal safety is poor planning and poor execution.
 
I appreciate all of the replies. They have all made me think. I was kind of hoping you guys would break down your thoughts into simple rules like I did. Actually, everyone has and it has been a very simple rule.

Rule 1. If you are in my house uninvited you are dead.

And I respect that. But I just have a more realistic imagination when I dream up scenarios, because I keep seeing one of the neighborhood football player sized youths rummaging through my computer room looking for stuff to steal to support a drug habit. Is he a threat? Yes. What will I do if I maintain the advantage of concealment and surprise? Quietly retreat to the safe room and call the police.

I have been criticized before for my lenient stance and someone who put it into perspective for me basically said, I may value human life but the threat/criminal/drugged up teen, most likely, does not.

But the value of life is only part of the problem when it comes to confronting a burglary. Think of the tactical issue. Without sweeping the entire house inside and out, how do you know if there is only one threat? The numbers keep me from engaging. Even if I only see and hear one, there may be another one outside providing lookout. Shooting the first threat may allow you to maintain your tactical edge BUT retreating and aiming at a choke point is the second best in my book and the first action that I will attempt.
 
Here's another scenario: person busts through your front door, and becasue you are always armed, you shoot him dead within 5 seconds of teh door opening. Then, in busts the bad guy, trying to kill him. You shoot the BG of course, and then find out that the first guy is your neighbor, who just had his house robbed, and was coming to your house to save his life. Not only do you feel like crap, but you will almost certainly face prosecution. You may have a defense, but you will still face prosecution. (This is the reason my front door is almost always locked, though. If someone comes through my door without my knowledge, I want it to take them a little while.) So in this scenario, maybe retreating a bit would have been a good idea, at least until you knew what was going on.
 
NH home owner shoots home invader

Just three months ago in Rochester, NH, a man shot and killed an armed home invader.

The local rag "Foster's Daily Democrat" actually did a decent piece on what are your legal rights to use deadly force (gun) in defense of your home. Here it is...



Sunday, September 25, 2005
Self-defense cases often a legal dilemma

By ROBERT M. COOK
Staff Writer
[email protected]


Although the New Hampshire Attorney Generals Office ruled on Friday that a Sept. 15 shooting at a Rochester home was justified, the law governing self defense doesn't provide a license to kill, legal experts say.

Investigators determined Geoff Hamann of 80 Pine St. in Rochester was justified in using deadly force when he shot and killed Brian Gaedtke, 21, of Fremont after he had broken into Hamann's home.

Hamann looked out his bedroom window and saw a man, later identified as Gaedtke, climbing onto the roof of an entranceway below his bedroom window. Hamann "verbally warned" Gaedtke to leave the premises, then displayed his unloaded handgun as a further deterrent, according a statement by investigators.

Gaedtke continued to climb the roof, repeatedly yelling: "I'm coming to get you," investigators said.

Gaedtke broke through the screen of one of the master bedroom's windows, then walked into the hallway, putting himself between Hamann and his youngest child's bedroom. He advanced down the hallway and turned in the direction of the child's bedroom, where Hamann's wife and child were still located. Fearing for his family, Hamann fired a single shot that hit Gaedtke in the chest and killed him, investigators said.

As clear as this latest self-defense case may have seemed, Senior Assistant Attorney General Will Delker said every such case is different and must be investigated to determine if a self-defense claim is valid.

Home self-defense laws are designed to protect people who have no choice but to use deadly force to protect themselves and their families. But those who don't act within the legal confines of law often end up as defendants who have to prove they acted in self defense to avoid going to jail, Delker said.

He called such cases never easy to investigate or prosecute. He said it's difficult for authorities to disprove a self-defense claim if only two people were involved, one is dead, and the other claims self defense.

"Thankfully, we don't have a ton of these cases in New Hampshire," he added.

Once an intruder breaks into a home in New Hampshire, he said, they're already committing a felony, and the law lets a homeowner use deadly force if they reasonably believe the invader poses a threat to the people living inside. There's no duty to retreat inside the home, and homeowners have a lot of flexibility to do as they see fit to protect their home and family, he said.

But very often, the person who pulls the trigger will face months of investigation, police questioning and, if the facts warrant it, a possible grand jury indictment and court trial, Delker said.

The guidelines governing self defense also differ from state to state, according to Charles Putnam, co-director of Justice Works at the University of New Hampshire in Durham. Provisions that legally would cover a self defense claim in New Hampshire might not apply in Maine or Massachusetts, he said.

Putnam, a former state prosecutor with the New Hampshire Attorney Generals Office who once headed its criminal bureau, said self-defense laws are intended to give residents some legal protection if they feel they have no choice but to use deadly force.

Based on his review of self defense laws in all three states, Putnam said a person can use deadly force in their home if an intruder enters their home and the would-be victim reasonably believes the intruder intends to hurt them or their family.

"Self-defense is a legal rule that is very old," said Putnam, who added that dates back to English common law used in New England colonies since the 1600s.

Since that time, each state has added specific changes designed to address particular situations that could arise with different results that most people probably don't realize, Putnam said.

For instance, in New Hampshire, a homeowner could shoot to kill a would-be intruder if they were spotted anywhere around the home's outside areas such as the front porch, driveway or backyard, Putnam said.

But in Massachusetts, a homeowner only could use deadly force against an intruder if they actually enter the home, Putnam said.

In Maine, if a homeowner invites someone to stay at the house, and that person tries to steal something in the middle of the night, Putnam said the homeowner must ask that person to stop. If the person flees, the homeowner can't shoot, Putnam said. If they continue to try and commit the crime and do not heed the homeowner's warning, Putnam said they can shoot them.

In New Hampshire, if a homeowner reasonably believes someone who has entered their home and is committing a burglary may pose a danger to them or their family, Putnam said they can shoot the intruder even if the intruder is unarmed. But in Massachusetts, a homeowner can't shoot a burglar if they don't demonstrate any signs they intend to harm the occupants, Putnam said.

"Most reasonable people recognize that taking another person's life is something that should be avoided at all costs and are reluctant to do it unless they feel their lives are in danger," Delker said. "Very few people want to kill someone else."

Many self-defense cases in Maine never get past a grand jury because of an added provision in the law that the Maine Attorney Generals Office dislikes, according to one state prosecutor.

Deputy Maine Attorney General Bill Stokes, head of the criminal division, said in most states a person whose claim of self defense is disproved may be acquitted of murder at trial, but will be convicted of manslaughter. That scenario is much less likely to occur in Maine, he said.

Maine's self defense law only lets a person be convicted of murder or manslaughter if the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person's actions were "wholly unreasonable" and "grossly deviant" in nature.

He said Maine's "grossly deviant" provision sets it apart from the rest of the country.

New Hampshire State Rep. Elbert Bicknell, R-Northwood, also is president of the Gun Owners Association of New Hampshire in Concord. He said homeowners need legal backing to protect their loved ones without having to worry about whether they will be charged with a crime.

A former State Police trooper and police officer who served 22 years in New Hampshire and Vermont, Bicknell said he believes citizens need to have the right to protect themselves at home because "very seldom do police stop a crime from happening."

Bicknell also serves on the House Criminal Justice and Public Safety Committee.

Some people who kill an intruder or someone who attacks them in their home may not fully understand the full extent of the law, he said. But he said that's not the state's concern.

"That's his castle," Bicknell said. "That's his last bastion that he can retreat to that is the safest place for him and his family."



Foster's Daily Democrat Reporter Matt Kanner contributed to the story.
 
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