Stephen A. Camp
Moderator In Memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
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This report was done a time back after a post on another board made the blanket statement that fixed sights were useless. I recently received a PM here from a gentleman inquiring as to fixed vs adj sights. Perhaps there are others and maybe this post will be of some help somewhere?
Hello.
On another board, someone remarked that fixed sights on a handgun were "useless" and that only adjustable sights had merit.
Well, it is true that with fixed sights, one's likely sighted in at but one distance with one load...or one that has the same POI for the same POA, but how much is someone really limited with "useless" fixed sights?
The comment was made reference Browning HP pistols so that's what was used in this "test."
The Pistol: Browning 9mm MkIII Hi Power. No accuracy work's been done on the pistol although it is not stock. It's been very lightly altered:
Factory bbl's been hardchromed.
Magazine Disconnect's been moved.
Spegel blk delrin, checkered stocks put on.
Wolff conventional 18.5lb recoil spring added w/Buffer Technology Shock Buffer.
Frame's been matte blued w/slide being bright blued.
Trigger job (done at home)
Hammer spur's been bobbed to avoid hammer bite.
This one has the cast frame, referred to as "cast iron" by the fellow opining that fixed sights are worthless.
Ammunition: The following rounds were fired:
Figures given are average velocities based on a 10-shot average and fired from a BHP. I didn't have figures for the BAT or the PMC.
Corbon 124 gr +P GDHP (discontinued load) ~ 1260 ft/sec
Triton 125 gr +P Hi Vel JHP ~ 1281 ft/sec
Federal 124 gr Nyclad HP ~ 1079 ft/sec
Handload: Rainier 124 gr PRN/6.9 gr Blue Dot ~ 1120 ft/sec
Remington 115 gr +P JHP ~ 1251 ft/sec
Federal 115 gr JHP ~ 1130 ft/sec
PMC 115 gr FMJ ~ Estimated at 1150 ft/sec
Hirtenberger 100 gr JSP ~ 1299 ft/sec
Geco 86 gr "Blitz Action Trauma" ~ Unknown
Glaser Silver 70 gr PreFrag ~ 1530 ft/sec
Shooting: For this test, distances were 15 and 25 yards. The fifteen-yard groups were fired standing, w/2-hand hold, and groups consisted of 3 shots each. The reason for this is that I would be shooting quite a bit and some of these rounds are getting hard to find and some are just plain expensive. It was fairly windy today and I was tired, so no fifty-yard shots in this test. The 25 yard groups were fired sitting, w/2-hand hold, but arms rested on my gun bag covered with a coat.
15 Yards:
(I was surprised at the tight group on the Glasers. Don't know if they're really that accurate of if it's a fluke. Some shot in the distant past were not.)
25 Yards:
This 10-shot group was fired using the Rainier handload with the aiming point being the "X." It was partially covered with the front sight such that all that would being showing would look like a "V."
This group was fired just as a "base" or benchmark for a standard pressure 124 gr load and to give an idea of what might be the "norm." Others might tighten up the group quite a bit, but this is about my par.
I apologize for the next picture's poor quality. It's a "composite" of two groups, each 10-rnds. One is using Corbon 124 gr +P while the other's Triton's 125 gr +P. At this distance, for me, anyway, there may very well be two, separate POI, but the error in the area of control make the two groups pretty well overlap.
The next group is also a composite with the lighter weight bullets used in this "test." They do strike below the black on the 50' target, which was used such that bullet holes might be more easily seen. Though a bit low, these groups also tend to overlap. The legend on which hole was made by which brand/weight bullet is visible. Each was marked after firing that group.
Here's the same target, but with two more of the heaviest weight bullets tried. I don't use 147s, so the 124s are it. Again, you can see the difference in POI for the lighter and sometimes faster bullets. The 124 gr loads overlap as well. The PMC 115 gr FMJ load also hits in the black and very close to the 124 gr standard pressure loads.
So, are fixed sights "useless?" I guess it depends on a couple of things; what size target will you be shooting and at what distance as well as will your loads all use similar weight bullets? If you're a match bullseye shooter, obviously adjustables are the way to go as would be the case if you liked to shoot at longer than normal distances. If you experiment constantly with various loads of widely differing weight and/or velocity, adjustables would be just the thing, but for those of us using the pistol to hit tennis ball sized targets at 20 or 25 yards or so or the fellow interesting in IDPA or self-defense, I hardly believe that fixed sights are "useless."
"Useless" or perfect depends on the perceptions of the owner/user, don't you think?
Best.
Hello.
On another board, someone remarked that fixed sights on a handgun were "useless" and that only adjustable sights had merit.
Well, it is true that with fixed sights, one's likely sighted in at but one distance with one load...or one that has the same POI for the same POA, but how much is someone really limited with "useless" fixed sights?
The comment was made reference Browning HP pistols so that's what was used in this "test."
The Pistol: Browning 9mm MkIII Hi Power. No accuracy work's been done on the pistol although it is not stock. It's been very lightly altered:
Factory bbl's been hardchromed.
Magazine Disconnect's been moved.
Spegel blk delrin, checkered stocks put on.
Wolff conventional 18.5lb recoil spring added w/Buffer Technology Shock Buffer.
Frame's been matte blued w/slide being bright blued.
Trigger job (done at home)
Hammer spur's been bobbed to avoid hammer bite.
This one has the cast frame, referred to as "cast iron" by the fellow opining that fixed sights are worthless.
Ammunition: The following rounds were fired:
Figures given are average velocities based on a 10-shot average and fired from a BHP. I didn't have figures for the BAT or the PMC.
Corbon 124 gr +P GDHP (discontinued load) ~ 1260 ft/sec
Triton 125 gr +P Hi Vel JHP ~ 1281 ft/sec
Federal 124 gr Nyclad HP ~ 1079 ft/sec
Handload: Rainier 124 gr PRN/6.9 gr Blue Dot ~ 1120 ft/sec
Remington 115 gr +P JHP ~ 1251 ft/sec
Federal 115 gr JHP ~ 1130 ft/sec
PMC 115 gr FMJ ~ Estimated at 1150 ft/sec
Hirtenberger 100 gr JSP ~ 1299 ft/sec
Geco 86 gr "Blitz Action Trauma" ~ Unknown
Glaser Silver 70 gr PreFrag ~ 1530 ft/sec
Shooting: For this test, distances were 15 and 25 yards. The fifteen-yard groups were fired standing, w/2-hand hold, and groups consisted of 3 shots each. The reason for this is that I would be shooting quite a bit and some of these rounds are getting hard to find and some are just plain expensive. It was fairly windy today and I was tired, so no fifty-yard shots in this test. The 25 yard groups were fired sitting, w/2-hand hold, but arms rested on my gun bag covered with a coat.
15 Yards:
(I was surprised at the tight group on the Glasers. Don't know if they're really that accurate of if it's a fluke. Some shot in the distant past were not.)
25 Yards:
This 10-shot group was fired using the Rainier handload with the aiming point being the "X." It was partially covered with the front sight such that all that would being showing would look like a "V."
This group was fired just as a "base" or benchmark for a standard pressure 124 gr load and to give an idea of what might be the "norm." Others might tighten up the group quite a bit, but this is about my par.
I apologize for the next picture's poor quality. It's a "composite" of two groups, each 10-rnds. One is using Corbon 124 gr +P while the other's Triton's 125 gr +P. At this distance, for me, anyway, there may very well be two, separate POI, but the error in the area of control make the two groups pretty well overlap.
The next group is also a composite with the lighter weight bullets used in this "test." They do strike below the black on the 50' target, which was used such that bullet holes might be more easily seen. Though a bit low, these groups also tend to overlap. The legend on which hole was made by which brand/weight bullet is visible. Each was marked after firing that group.
Here's the same target, but with two more of the heaviest weight bullets tried. I don't use 147s, so the 124s are it. Again, you can see the difference in POI for the lighter and sometimes faster bullets. The 124 gr loads overlap as well. The PMC 115 gr FMJ load also hits in the black and very close to the 124 gr standard pressure loads.
So, are fixed sights "useless?" I guess it depends on a couple of things; what size target will you be shooting and at what distance as well as will your loads all use similar weight bullets? If you're a match bullseye shooter, obviously adjustables are the way to go as would be the case if you liked to shoot at longer than normal distances. If you experiment constantly with various loads of widely differing weight and/or velocity, adjustables would be just the thing, but for those of us using the pistol to hit tennis ball sized targets at 20 or 25 yards or so or the fellow interesting in IDPA or self-defense, I hardly believe that fixed sights are "useless."
"Useless" or perfect depends on the perceptions of the owner/user, don't you think?
Best.
