using feeler gauge to set resizing die

[Hopkins]

The cam over in my press adds factors of wiggle that complicate the procedure. Ringing accuracy out of loads at 400yds plus is a different discipline than building 100yd results. I spend a lot more time with my chronograph, calipers, scales and micrometers than before. As much as I would rather spend the resources elsewhere I guess a new press is next.
I do belong to and enjoy the other forum mentioned as well as this one.

 

[GLOOB]

If you think that cam over is adding additional "wiggle room," go back and read kingmt's post. Then throw away all your shims, feeler gauges (Skip's or magic or otherwise), and spring for those competition shellholders.

 

[fguffey]

kingmt's post

Hopkins, I collect presses, I do not have less than 16, some of them cam over, I have 4 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers cam over, they jam up, go into a bind or lock up, but they do not cam over. As indicated by the responses the function of the cam over is not understood, nice thing, it is not necessary to understand the function to own one.

First, what press are you using.

F. Guffey

kingmt's post:

Others are going to differ from what I tell you.

The only way to get the same thing every time is to have the shim between the shell holder & the die so you get a positive full stop every time. If you don't have something to make a solid stop against then it will very length depending on how easy the brass is to form. Harder brass is going to use up more slack in the press & not size down as much.

Gloog suggest:

If you think that cam over is adding additional "wiggle room," go back and read kingmt's post. Then throw away all your shims, feeler gauges (Skip's or magic or otherwise), and spring for those competition shell holders.

I said:

Rock Chuckers cam over?, they jam up, go into a bind or lock up, but they do not cam over. It would seem unfair, Hopkins has a Rock Chuckerr that cams over, I have 4 that do not, two have Piggy Back 11 presses attached.

Just an opinion base on pass experiences, Hopkins and ED have bonded and any contribution offered by Kingmt never had a chance, and I stayed out.

February 22, 2012, 08:07 PM #5
NeuseRvrRat
Member


Join Date: January 24, 2011
Location: Roxboro, NC
Posts: 374 guffey will love this

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Last edited by NeuseRvrRat; February 22, 2012 at 08:08 PM. Reason: but we still won't be able to understand what he's trying to say

and I have no clue how an adult could take pride in this effort by NeuseRvrRat.

F. Guffey

 

[Hopkins]

The shell holders don't do anything more or less than shims will other than subtract vs add distance between the the shoulder of the die and the cartridge case head.

 

[Hopkins]

I don't want to get off on the wrong foot with anyone. My problem is the cam over which I can't measure and for that reason don't want. I would like to be able to use a feeler gauge to set my fl resizing die for each of the rifles I reload for. I have accurate measurements of no go cases that are difficult to chamber and have been able to resize them enough but sometimes more than enough to chamber. Those sizing adjustments are frustrating efforts in trial and error so far.

 

[GLOOB]

The shell holders don't do anything more or less than shims will other than add vs subtract distance between the the shoulder of the die and the cartridge case head.

Well, if I understand how these shims are used, then I have to disagree:

headspace control shims to control how far the shoulder is pushed back by the resizing die. These headspace control shims are placed under the die lock ring, which moves the die upward and away from the shell holder.

Sound to me like these shims do nothing more than endorse a way to index your dies incorrectly.

A competition shellholder contacts the die on each stroke. Doesn't matter how hard/soft the brass is, how much your press flexes, or how much wiggle you have on your cam (or how misunderstood or nice thing cam over is). When screwed all the way down plus a quarter turn, your sizing is dictated by the size of your die/shellholder combination. The die and shellholder do not flex, to any significant degree. If they make contact on each stroke, then that's the most repeatable sizing you will achieve. It doesn't matter if your press is a Lee C clamp or a Rock Chucker or a thousand dollar press. The brass wouldn't know the difference.

When you decide to size using an air gap between die and shellholder, you introduce all those variables. So using precisely machined shims to perfectly control the amount of gap is hardly going to transfer those precise results to the brass, unless your press is extremely rigid or your brass is extremely uniform.

And since you can easily convert mils into fractions of a turn, I don't see why you would spend the time or money to buy/make shims to begin with. Well, I suppose it would be convenient, if you have multiple rifles to load for. But not as convenient or effective as a set of the aforementioned shellholders.

and have been able to resize them enough but sometimes more than enough to chamber. Those sizing adjustments are frustrating efforts in trial and error so far.

Even when set up correctly, you will always get some variation in your brass sizing. Some brass will have more spring back than others. One thing you can do is use a case gauge to check all your sized brass, and set aside and anneal those cases that don't size enough. If you can keep your brass separate for each rifle and for each number of firings, you will minimize this variation.

 

[Hopkins]

I accept that measuring an air gap between the shell holder and die is useless with this press. I agree that adjusted by way of a shell holder into full battery the die cannot size beyond the limit physically imposed. The same thing can be achieved by using the appropriate shim.

 

[sugarmaker]

My rock chucker, circa 1992, cams over. my LNL-AP also cams over. The RC has a little bit of flex, so the ram height at TDC is a function of how much force is on the press. hotter loads, stiffer brass, fired in different guns, or changes in lube from case to case will affect how much the neck is pushed back UNLESS the ram contacts the bottom of the die on every case. At that point you have created a dead length chamber, it's the best, you can do no better. Using a shim between the die and shellholder will work to reduce neck set-back but to be precise it must be left in position so it lengthens the dead length chamber. Sizing or seating, a dead length setup is what works best esp. in an aluminum press which stretches like a rubber band. A steel (both frame and links) rock chucker is much better in this regard, but still not perfect. Affix a dial indicator so it measures between the shellholder and top of the press and run a few different cases, you'll be surprised how much variation there is unless your dies kiss at the top of the stroke. Don't do this with a Corbin swage press, it WILL break your dies, it has about half a thou of flex between no contact and stand on handle hard. An RC has enough spring so you're OK. T clarify, i measure about 2 thou of variation on the RC and ablut 10 (at least, depends on what else is going on) on the LNL-AP. i have an older JR press that comes in at about 3 thou. This is difference between a lubed 9mm with carbide and a 30-06 doing FL size.

 

[Hopkins]

When I began this post I was trying to get answers about using a feeler gauge to adjust resizing dies accurately because I had been unable to figure out how it was done. I had tried and failed. I did not make the mistake of believing that I could use it to measure a gap between the die and shell holder. I thought it was possible that I was missing something.

 

[fguffey]

Hopkins, in my opinion you should avoid ‘polarizing’ there is too much of that going on, the Redding shell holders add distance ‘not subtract’ to a maximum of .010 thousands, again, I have a set, $5.00 for a set of 5, all total they are off .003, so I can not complain and a few know that small stuff like that does not lock me up.

Again, I have a M1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, not uncommon for an Eddystone, When forming cases for the chamber, I adjust the die off the shell holder .014 thousands, Not easy to find trashy old cases that are too long from the head of the case to the shoulder, so I use 280 Remington cases, When it comes to the transfer/standard/companion to the press, the feeler gage, think of it as a tool not a person.

Thinking of the feeler gage as a person will consume you, lock you up, and turn you into something you should not aspire to be.

F. Guffey

 

[Hopkins]

Damn, I was going to show off for Dulcinea and joust a feeler gauge posing as a windmill.

 

[Hopkins]

RCBS technical advisor wrote me "You can back off the die slightly and the press won't cam over. The cam over occurs when you set the size die down below the shell holder a 1/4 turn. We don't have any alternate parts that work with the press."

 

[fguffey]

Hopkins, forgive, if you are saying you had an impluse and then changed your mind, thank you

Sugarmaker, again, It is not fair, but, I ask again, if the ROCK CHUCKER cams over’ how much???? in thousands, I have deflection gages, strain gages, in reloading that is just name dropping I understand. RCBS makes a great press, if I thought it had a fault I would build a set of tools that would identify a/the problem.

Mass Hysteria, it happened when someone with a camera recorded the operation of a RCBS press with out a die and or shell holder, to everyone's horror the ram jumped forward at the top of the stroke and then, the reloading forums took on the nature of MASS HYSTERIA, and then blamed the Chinese, and totally disregarded my advise, “THE Rock Chucker in the video did not cam over” it jammed over, crammed over, etc, but, what ever it did, it did not cam over.

F. Guffey

 

[bigedp51]

Hopkins

The die does NOT need to contact the shell holder, the amount of resizing lube, age and condition of the brass etc. will control the spring back of the brass when resized. This is why they make cartridge headspace gauges to measure the exact "end result" of sizing your cases.



Below is from the Sierra Exterior Ballistics website, and this information doesn't contain egos and opinions.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm

Full Length Sizing

Full length sizing is the most commonly used form of resizing. Full length sizing dies reduce the neck and body dimensions of a fired case to allow free and easy chambering. In most instances, full length sizing will reduce the case dimensions enough to allow it to be used interchangeably in several different rifles chambered for the same cartridge. Contrary to popular opinion, full length resizing is commonly used by the vast majority of competitive shooters, especially in those disciplines where rapid-fire is involved. It should be clearly understood that full length sizing does not reduce a fired case to its original, unfired dimensions. The goal here is to bring the case dimensions down far enough to allow the reloaded case to be chambered without difficulty.

Adjustment of the full length die calls for the die body to be screwed down in the press until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke. If the ammunition is to be reused in the same gun the cases were originally fired in, back the die off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and size a lightly lubricated case. Wipe the case dry, and chamber it in the gun. If any resistance is felt, lower the die body another 1/8 of a turn (or less), and repeat the process with another fired case. This is repeated until the action will just close without resistance. When this has been accomplished, set the lock ring to secure the die in place. This method will ensure that the fired cases are resized with a minimum amount of headspace. This case has now been “custom fitted” to that particular chamber.

This will normally provide the best case life and accuracy, but does require that the ammunition only be used in the gun in which it was originally fired. If the ammunition is to be used in a different gun of the same chambering, of course!, the sizing die should be adjusted down until it just contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke.

This results in a slightly greater amount of headspace, but will allow the ammunition to be used in several different guns. Whichever adjustment style is used, full length sizing is generally the best sizing method for most shooting situations.

The custom shell holders are nice and work extremely well "BUT" at $50.00 each for the different caliber sets the cost adds up quickly, I'll keep using my shims and save over $100.00 that can be used elsewhere. And also know exactly how far off the shell holder my dies are.

"MASS HYSTERIA" only happens when people read fguffey's postings and try to understand them.

"the reloading forums took on the nature of MASS HYSTERIA, and then blamed the Chinese, and totally disregarded my advise"

Fguffey do the Chinese have feeler gauges and does the landing gear of a Chinese aircraft cam over when down and locked.

 

[bigedp51]

Headspace Control Shims Test

Shell Holder Bump vs. Case Head Runout

http://www.armaster.com/htm/shim_test.htm

NOTE: contacting the shell holder will "NOT" straighten a warped banana shaped case with unequal case wall thickness or ensure the base of the case is 90 degrees to the axis of the bore.

 

[Hopkins]

I would rather invest in go gauges for the 6 cartridges I load for and a set of shims for the press than custom shell holders. If that combination works along with my headspace gauge and a knowledge of my true chamber dimension I'll put the feeler gauge back in the tool box for engine rebuilding and valve adjusting.

 

[Hopkins]

I used the procedure outlined in the quoted Sierra text but when you have 2 resizing dies for 5 .308 rifles, 1 resizing die for 3 30-06 rifles and 1 resizing die for 2 6x55 's plus the other rifles I load for it's pretty time consuming to switch that way for each resizing task. Hence my interest in a fool proof way to set up resizing with repeatable measurements.

 

[sugarmaker]

Ok... What I claim (and the ONLY thing I claim) is that most presses (the three I own) have ram height variations under load. One Corbin swage press (I forget the model, it was a manual press with a die adapter) I measured did not show this. I used a Starett dial indicator. The presses do not show variation when the die contacts the shellholder. No claims made about this adjustment fixing all the things brass does to make life challenging. I agree, these happen, have an affect on the case, etc... little gremlins we all deal with. For myself, I like knowing once I identify the correct setup (I have a set of stony point / hornady gauges also) that my press isn't doing any unapproved self-adjustment, however small it may be. (on the LNL-AP it isn't small...)

With my RC if I run the handle all the way down the ram goes over center, it takes a little bit of handle force to "pop" (pop is a strong work, it's not that much) it back over. I actually prefer it that way, as I find there are no questions about reaching TDC on the ram. It's been so long since I bought it I need to go down and look, I know I removed a bit of metal to help the .375HH fit better, not sure if that affected the up stroke or the down - from memory i thought it was down but my memory is suspect and i'm not at home right now.

 

[Hopkins]

Sugarmaker, I agree with your assessment of the RC at the cam point or whatever it is that happens when battery is achieved. My plan at this point is to use a over sized case as a goat and resize it short of ideal, measure and adjust with the shim to the ideal.

 

[popper]

Hopkins- 'cam-over' is just tactile feedback as sugermaker stated. You 'know' when the handle get pulled all the way. Any 'slack' in the press will ALWAYS be there no mater who's pres you use. I didn't buy the shims - they are probably a good idea. I change calibers often in reloading and use the feeler gauge to set the die on bottleneck cases. Hint - put larger gauge leafs on both sides of the thinner leaf to prevent destroying the thinner ones. Use the case gauge to check your work. Start with the die off the shell holder, size and adjust until you get the proper setback. Then, insert feeler gauge between shell holder and die, raise the ram (if it is a cam over type, move on and off the cam point). Gently pull on the feeler gauge and you can tell when you have the right fit. Size a few and check with CG. WRITE DOWN the measurement! Next time you screw in the die, check and see if there is a difference - then find out why. Beats guessing! Like adjusting engine valves. As a long range shooter, I suspect you want to control HS and case volume.

 

[Hopkins]

If the case volumes are the same, the neck tension the same, the bullets identical...so forth and so on the velocity should be close to the same which should yield the same down range vertical performance. That's the theory. There is a lot of the "so forth and so on" I haven't bothered to list but it's all becoming part of a OCD quest.