Using FFg in a revolver

[Coyote Rider]

I know you're supposed to use FFFg in revolvers, but I'm wondering if anybody in the group ever ran out of FFFg and all they had was FFg, or they took the wrong can to the range or something. I'm wondering how well it worked (I'm assuming the powder would still go off and manage to send the ball on its way), effects on accuracy, etc., and if it's a good idea to add an extra few grains of powder.

 

[mykeal]

FFg will burn a little slower and thus produce slightly less peak pressure and muzzle velocity in a revolver. However, the overall energy release is the same, it's just over a longer period of time. Thus the longer the barrel, the less will be the effect.

It's unlikely you could notice any signifcant difference in accuracy, but you probably could measure a small decrease in target energy and velocity.

 

[Dienekes]

It's all I've had on hand for some years now, and it's worked ok in .36 and .44 percussions and rifle and handgun cartridge loads. Perhaps not optimal, but if there's a difference only a chronograph would know it.

 

[Shawnee]

Hmmm. Thanks, Gents - That's nice to know !

Local Walmart has several cans of 777 FFG on clearance for cheap.

 

[pohill]

From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"FFG black powder is best for large and medium-size revolvers, and FFFG for the small pocket models, but any grade that is available will work reasonably well."

Remember, 777 is 15% hotter than black powder.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

After having read, several times, about the fact that FFG or Pyrodex RS can be used in C&B revolvers, I got to wondering. Everyone seems to agree that RS will have a slower burn time, and produce lower pressures and lower bullet velocity. How much less? If 30 gr. RS equals the same muzzle velocity as 25 gr. P then I'll just stop using a powder measure and stick to loading RS. After all, wouldn't having more powder burn outside of the gun result in better accuracy, with the very fun benefiet of more smoke and flames?

 

[mykeal]

How much less depends on many factors, but usually about 5% or less.

How could powder burning outside the barrel help accuracy? It's been my experience that overloading, with the resulting extra-barrel combustion, results in lowered accuracy. Unilaterally. The problem is that the amount that is expelled is inconsistent from shot to shot, thus group size is larger.

 

[John C]

The rule of thumb I've heard from N-SSA shooters is 20%. Many of those guys use FFFg in their rifled muskets. So what would normally be a 60 gr FFg load is a 48 gr FFFg load. The result is less fouling and supposedly increased accuracy. This is for real Black Powder; I have no idea what the conversion would be for Pyrodex or 777.

-John

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Mykeal,
If I load 30 gr. of Pyrodex P, my accuracy is not as good as if I load 25 gr.. The lighter loading produces lower pressures, and less fps muzzle velocity. If Pyrodex RS produces, let's say 80%, of the pressure and velocity of P then a 30 gr. load of RS would preform similar to a 25 gr. load of P.
Now, I've totally made up the 80% to make the math easier, but you can see what I'm getting at, right?

 

[mykeal]

Yes, you're going in the right direction, but a 20% difference in muzzle velocity between RS and P is way, way more than I've ever seen.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

I wouldn't really expect 20%, it was just a convenient number for the example. However 20% sure would be nice, as that's what I need for my best accuracy. I know I've seen comparisons on here of different powders, and loads but I haven't been able to find them.

 

[sundance44s]

Pyrodex P cronos hotter than Goex 3F .. 8 inch barrel Remmie

45 lc 255 gr bullet Pyrodex P 30grs ..935 fps
45 lc 255 gr bullet Goex 3F 30grs ....830 fps
big difference ...felt difference too .

 

[mykeal]

Sundance44s

OK, but the question was RS vs P.

How many shots of each did you measure to get those numbers?

 

[Shotgun Willy]

velocities

I finally found some comparisons, done by Mec, some time ago. Both tests were using a Walker, and 5 rounds each.


60 gr. Pyrodex P 1221 fps, 44 fps spread

60 gr. Pyrodex RS 1045 fps, 35 fps spread

&

45 gr. Pyrodex P 1157 fps, 56 fps spread

45 gr. Pyrodex RS 869 fps, 55 fps spread

I don't know why the discrepancies in power drop, but in the top example RS yields about 86% of the muzzle velocity of P. The second example yields about 75%.

It could be that I've read it wrong, but I don't think so.
Opinions?

 

[sundance44s]

I shot a 3 shot string with each and took the average for the 3 ..
I haven`t used the RS pyrodex or 2f Goex at all ..I use 3F in everything I shoot sorry .
My spreads were low numbers ..more consistant loading useing the Cartridge ..20 to 25 fps spreads .

 

[mykeal]

Opinions....hmmm.

Observations:
The error terms significantly increased with the moderate load, something I really don't understand.
For the heavy load RS decreases in velocity between 9 and 20 percent, for an average of 10 percent, more than I would have expected.
For the medium load RS decreases in velocity between 17 and 32 percent! The average is 24 percent. Astounding.

Conclusion:
I need more data. The velocity for RS with the medium load seems out of place to me. The error term is nearly 7 percent, so it just doesn't seem to fit. Nonetheless, the difference between RS and P at the heavy load is larger than I'd expected - actually, twice what I expected. Very interesting.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Did a little searching, on The Firing Line forum, and found someone else who'd done a powder comparison. I don't remember numbers, but it was out of a Dragoon, and when I put it through the calculator I got RS having about 0.85 the muzzle velocity of P. This compares to one of the two examples Mec posted. So, if we take 2 out of 3, and go with the 85%, then 85% P x 30gr = about 25.5 gr P. In other words, 30gr RS should give about the same performance as 25.5 gr P. Now to go out and shoot them, side by side, and see how they feel.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

just to toss in my 2c. worth I have found that shooting Pyro 'P' seems hotter in my '58 Rem. than 3F BP. I never bothered to try RS in my pistol due to the ignition problems I had w/it in my .50 caplock. lately I've been using a .32 acp case of 4F under my P load as a 'booster' and it seems to have a little more 'oomphh' to it. altho my '58 shoots tighter groups (somewhat) with about 24 grs. I always load hot.