Using slide release over manually retracting the slide.

[Nom de Forum]

I guess he didn't consider dropping the old mag and installing a new one a stoppage? I suppose if you are really fast, you could fire the last chambered round as you slammed the new mag home...

Russellc

Apparently not. I think the expectation was you would preform the reload during an expected lull in the firing. I would never want to bet my life on that lull occurring at the best possible time (one remaining round in the chamber). I don't think I have ever heard of a credible account of someone in a fast firing gun fight, that lasted more than two of three shots, having counted their shots and reloaded their 1911 at the best possible time. If you are dropping 7rd 1911 mags after just a few shots to ensure a fully loaded pistol you better be carrying a boatload of them so as to not run out of magazines. I remember those days back in the 1970's during Cooper's peak of influence when we rationalized that the low mag capacity of the 1911 didn't matter because we could always make a fast reload. Of course those fast reloads were almost always practiced from an optimal shooting stance for making them, not from the often awkward shooting stances of real gun fights. Even in competition the shooting stages were artificially designed so that reloads were required after six shots to not penalize revolver shooters and to prevent inaccurate 1911 shooters from being embarrassed by somebody using a 9mm with a double column mag.

 

[1911Tuner]

Apparently not. I think the expectation was you would preform the reload during an expected lull in the firing.

I think that the reasoning behind it was that the shooter would move to cover when possible and execute the "tactical" reload with the gun still pointed at the threat with a round under the hammer while the weak hand reached for the magazine. It's not that it wasn't a stoppage. It was that it was a planned stoppage that would have the gun back in the fight in less than half the time that it would take with a surprise locked slide.

These things are often...if not usually...decided in split seconds. Every fraction of a second that you can save increases your chances of going home alive.

. I don't think I have ever heard of a credible account of someone in a fast firing gun fight, that lasted more than two of three shots.

A wise man once remarked: "If you haven't solved your problem with 5 rounds, you probably can't solve it with 25."

Something else to consider is the slide failing to lock with the last round. That can and does happen. Then, you've got another move eating into your time.

A salty old Master Gunny once told me that I should expect my weapon to malfunction.

And you have to get lucky every time he pulls the trigger.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Counting rounds can be done if you keep your wits about you.

Back when Cooper ran Gunsite, and the students entered the Funhouse...any shooter whose slide locked empty was judged "killed" regardless of how he'd done up to that point. Cooper was trying to drive a point home. That being that a gun shot dry is a stoppage...and stoppages aren't conducive to long life.

Don't mean to be sacrilegious, but while Cooper had a lot of good ideas, he wasn't infallible.

I understand that Cooper was making a point, but I'm not sure whether it's a good point or not. At Gunsite, it was his "game" and he could make the rules. If that "rule" was made clear before the game began, then the shooter shooting to slide lock should have been penalized.

There is mental time and attention required of the shooter whether he's keeping track of the rounds fired to avoid a slide-lock reload or simply responding to a locked slide. The time spent grabbing the fresh mag and inserting it in the gun is probably the same. The main difference is the time spent getting ready for the change: knowing when it's time to change mags, based on an "internal" or noticing and responding to locked slide and releasing it. The shooter can be ready to act whether he (or she) is counting or shooting to slide lock.

I would argue, however, that a reload done with the slide closed is ALSO a stoppage, as there is still a period of time when the shooter can't fire while the fresh mag is being inserted and when the gun and the shooter's eyes probably aren't being kept fully on target. Then, too, I've been told that it's critical to WATCH the mag go into the gun... Using the COUNT METHOD is quicker, to be sure, but if you have to fire before the mag is in place you still have to contend with the slide locking back; I suspect that the person doing the COUNT may NOT ready for THAT extra unexpected step. If you're reloading from cover - the preferred course of action, when possible - the extra time spent doing a slide-lock reload may or may not be meaningful. If you're reloading on the move, it's hard to assess just how critical those extra few seconds might be. I guess it's sometimes better to be a moving target -- but not always. (Your point above, about being lucky when HE pulls the trigger applies when you're on the move.)

There is, of course, the option of a SPEED RELOAD -- changing the mag in the gun before it's empty.- That's not allowed in IDPA (unless you retain the mags -- which makes it a TACTICAL RELOAD, and slows things down), but the Speed Reload can be used in some USPSA classes. For IDPA the tactical reload is time consuming, but may be appropriate for some strings of fire. To do that effectively you have to plan ahead and understand the course of fire -- not at all like a true real world encounter.

There's a link below to an interesting YOUTUBE video of a USPSA Production stage, from the Brian Enos site ...

the shooter shoots to lock on some parts of a stage, does speed reloads in others, and drops an empty mag with one round left in the chamber in others. You'll see as few as 6 rounds fired before a reload in some cases, and 11 fired in others. It's hard to tell the difference in the time taken with the various reload methods unless you count the rounds fired -- given that most of the reloads are done (under cover) as the shooter moves to the next target. Lots of mags left on the ground, to be sure. Is this real world? Hardly -- if for no other reason that, as noted in recent responses, most self-defense confrontations seldom involve more than 3 or 4 shots fired by a defender and few of us carry more than a single spare mag, if that. Going to slide lock may be more a nervous response than a necessary one.

https://r3---sn-p5qlsu7r.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?id=o-AAKZyQnkER6YRXEXVlmIHCY0zTmJhgicr0ofFfzsJ42N&source=youtube&signature=34AAE0E0B169B0C6B3DB7F2CD298C89070D07C90.04590A31B7A361C6FA4BAB49D8CDB4AD352444A4&ipbits=0&requiressl=yes&key=cms1&sver=3&sparams=expire,id,initcwndbps,ip,ipbits,itag,mm,ms,mv,ratebypass,requiressl,source,upn&itag=43&ip=108.208.230.157&ratebypass=yes&expire=1411764602&upn=3O3Y7xIK5OM&fexp=914075%2C916615%2C927622%2C930510%2C930666%2C931983%2C932404%2C934030%2C937428%2C939936%2C939937%2C944907%2C946023%2C947209%2C952302%2C953724%2C953801&signature=undefined&redirect_counter=1&req_id=67fe7eebda5ea3ee&cms_redirect=yes&mm=26&ms=tsu&mt=1411743080&mv=u

Most of us aren't nearly as quick as the shooter in the video -- and he didn't have the fastest times in that match -- I think it shows him as 11th overall in the Production group. But, most of us can probably manage a slide-lock reload in 5-6 seconds without too much effort.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Don't mean to be sacrilegious, but while Cooper had a lot of good ideas, he wasn't infallible.

"He wasn't infallible"? That is rarely acknowledged by many of the ardent fans of Cooper. Thank you for mentioning that regardless of whether you are a fan of his or not.

But, most of us can probably manage a slide-lock reload in 5-6 seconds without too much effort.

Back in my prime IPSC days shot to shot times from slide lock were often under 2 seconds by the most skilled competitors and under 3 by all but the least skilled. Nobody used the sling-shot or overhand racking method of slide release. Even with the tiny release surface on a Glock slide stop I, as a right-handed shooter, don't have problems using my shooting hand thumb to actuate it. Being able to do that is more about the size and strength of your hand than a learned skill. I do think, for a right-handed shooter, using the non-shooting hand thumb is a usually a better technique to use.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

"He wasn't infallible"? That is rarely acknowledged by many of the ardent fans of Cooper. Thank you for mentioning that regardless of whether you are a fan of his or not.

A lot of guys from Cooper's era were considered experts and highly regarded for their ability to share their knowledge. Cooper may have been the only one who became the focus of what might be best described as a CULT.

 

[graywolfkayak]

As a lefty I find using the slide release cumbersome, if not difficult at times. Therefore I use the slingshot method.

 

[Nom de Forum]

A lot of guys from Cooper's era were considered experts and highly regarded for their ability to share their knowledge. Cooper may have been the only one who became the focus of what might be best described as a CULT.

I completely agree. It is a shame because cult's have little tolerance for opposing ideas and tend to stifle progress especially when a cult's orthodoxy becomes a significant part of mainstream thinking. Cooper did many great things for shooting but all the things he did for shooting need to be kept in proper perspective.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

As a lefty I find using the slide release cumbersome, if not difficult at times. Therefore I use the slingshot method.

Lefties have it tough with most guns. (Only one or two of mine have ambidextrous controls.)

You might try using the "hand-over (the slide)" approach. It gives you a more secure grip than grasping the rear of the slide, and it allows you to hold the gun higher and closer to the target and your eyes, which means less time spent reacquiring the target.

With the hand-over method, you slam the mag in and just continue to move the off hand up to grasp the stop of the slide and the slide to the rear to release it. It may take some effort to find a way of doing it that doesn't cause an uncomfortable clash between your hand and the rear sight. It's a natural grip if you have to do a clearance drill, as well.

If SPEED isn't an issue, you can continue using the older "slingshot" method.

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't mean to be sacrilegious, but while Cooper had a lot of good ideas, he wasn't infallible.

Never claimed that he was, but he did have a good many sound ideas and methods.

I would argue, however, that a reload done with the slide closed is ALSO a stoppage, as there is still a period of time when the shooter can't fire while the fresh mag is being inserted and when the gun and the shooter's eyes probably aren't being kept fully on target.

Nobody's arguing that it's not a stoppage...but loading a fresh magazine by choice rather than necessity speeds things up a bit because you can reach for the magazine while the gun is still in the fight and have it in position before the old one is jettisoned...and there's no need to take your eyes off the threat for very long...if at all...if you place the tip of your index finger against the bullet nose of the top round, and guide it in using the hand-finds-hand method. After just a little practice, it gets smoother and faster.

There are no guarantees, and things can go real wrong in a real gunfight. It's not about guarantees. It's about stacking the deck...and the best way of stacking the deck is to cut down on the time frames...from acquiring the target and firing...to reloading the weapon and getting it back in the fight as quickly as possible.

Whoever gits there fustest with the mostest.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Nobody's arguing that it's not a stoppage...but loading a fresh magazine by choice rather than necessity speeds things up a bit because you can reach for the magazine while the gun is still in the fight and have it in position before the old one is jettisoned...and there's no need to take your eyes off the threat for very long...if at all...if you place the tip of your index finger against the bullet nose of the top round, and guide it in using the hand-finds-hand method. After just a little practice, it gets smoother and faster.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were a Cooper Cultist. <grin> I've never gotten that impression in our many exchanges over the years; I tend to be an iconoclast at times, and my response was as much a fun comment as something serious. I should've done a following that remark. Sorry.

I'll agree that the COUNT method is faster, if you can do the it right under pressure. But I think that many folks, me included, will have better results using a slide-lock reload. Why? Having been in a few accidents, and some unusual flights on both military and commercial aircraft, I know that keeping focus can be hard when you're bombarded by threats and stressors.

(Then, too, I suspect that if there was a big advantage to the technique, more competitive shooters would be doing slide-closed reloads far more often than seems to be the case -- and more attention given to the technique in classes. Maybe they doing it and I've just missed it...)

 

[saltydog452]

Wild hair in the mix

An attempted reload using an 8 rd mag when the slide is fwd might not work out well.

One more reason for using std 7 rd mags.

That muddied the water a little bit, but it might be worth consideration when recharging the pistol is being discussed.

Maybe,

salty

 

[45_auto]

An attempted reload using an 8 rd mag when the slide is fwd might not work out well.

I've never had any problem with it in the 20 or so years that I've been using the 8-rounders. Standard practice for everyone around here is to load a mag, load a round into the chamber, then top off the mag and re-insert so you have 9 rounds in the gun. Can't tell any difference doing a tactical mag change with the slide forward.

 

[SIGLBER]

Although I agree that the retracting and releasing of the slide is a gross motor skill rather than a fine motor skill. Which is better under adrenal dump. And it does chamber the round with more authority. For many decades releasing the slide stop worked. And it's faster. You don't have to break your shooting grip to do it. So pick your poison.
And it is bad to drop the slide on a 1911 with no round in the chamber. It can break the extractor. Just not a good idea on this particular weapon.

 

[rcmodel]

Mmmmmm?

After 55 years of 1911's.
I am Not aware of any way it can break the extractor.

The extractor doesn't even touch anything in the gun except the hole in the slide & the firing pin retainer.
Unless there is a round in the gun.

What it does do is put abnormal stress & impact on the sear / hammer hook that doesn't normally happen with the trigger pulled, the disconnector disconnected, and the hammer hook let-down against the sear somewhat cushioned by the reduced slide speed during normal feeding.

rc

 

[Nom de Forum]

Never claimed that he was, but he did have a good many sound ideas and methods.

In addition to Walt, I also was not implying you were a "Cooper Cultist".

I may have some strong negative opinions of John "Jeff" Cooper but I acknowledge his many beneficial contributions to advancing the understanding of defensive use of handguns.

 

[Nom de Forum]

And it is bad to drop the slide on a 1911 with no round in the chamber. It can break the extractor.

You don't need to worry about that. If that were possible I would have known about it 40 years ago and they would teach that at the National Match Armorers School at Rock Island Arsenal. But none of that matters because I can assure you if RCModel tells you that it can't happen it ain't happening.

 

[1911Tuner]

After 55 years of 1911's.
I am Not aware of any way it can break the extractor.

After about the same amount of time, I'll concur with rc.

What it does do is impose added impact stress on the barrel's lower lug feet...covered about 25 posts ago.

What it does do is put abnormal stress & impact on the sear / hammer hook that doesn't normally happen with the trigger pulled, the disconnector disconnected, and the hammer hook let-down against the sear somewhat cushioned by the reduced slide speed during normal feeding.

The jury's still out on this. With the hammer's short drop back to the sear as the slide runs forward, it's unlikely that the difference would be enough to make a difference. The gun just isn't that fragile. Besides...the hammer will fall to the sear regardless of the trigger's position.

Where the concern with the sear comes in is in the instance that the trigger bumps the disconnect hard enough to move the sear out of the hooks without holding it long enough to miss the half-cock. A finely-honed sear crown can be damaged and wreck a match-grade trigger.

Back in the early days of the AMU and Bullseye competition...when the only triggers they had to work with were made of steel...the common practice was to hold the trigger rearward before releasing the slide to keep the disconnect out of the equation.

I also remember the modified hammers...ground on an angle...to minimize the drop distance. So many things that we don't see any more, eh?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

So -- and I do have great respect to 1911Tuner's knowledge of the workings of 1911s -- it would appear that some (or much) of the concern about slides slamming shut on empty chambers with 1911s is at least misplaced or overdone. Nice to know. Especially the bit about extractors.

 

[Nom de Forum]

After about the same amount of time, I'll concur with rc.

What it does do is impose added impact stress on the barrel's lower lug feet...covered about 25 posts ago........

.......I also remember the modified hammers...ground on an angle...to minimize the drop distance. So many things that we don't see any more, eh?

While on the subject of added impact stress on the barrel's lower lug feet and things we don't see any more; I have see broken lower lug feet. About 35 years ago a freshly minted Colorado School of Trades gunsmith welded up the feet of a 1911 barrel and then recut them for a tighter barrel to slide lock-up. The pistol shot well for about 25 rounds before the lower lug feet broke. So obviously the lower lug feet have some impact stress, but can non-defective feet really be subjected to damaging stress from dropping a slide on an empty chamber? I have a hard time believing that is possible after decades of seeing that done, some on really tight as in hood snapping tight National Match pistols, and never seeing any other broken feet.

 

[1911Tuner]

So obviously the lower lug feet have some impact stress, but can non-defective feet really be subjected to damaging stress from dropping a slide on an empty chamber?

Yes...and cracking or shearing isn't the only damage that they can suffer. They can also become deformed, and allow the slide to ride further forward. That in itself isn't a major issue...but delaying linkdown can become one.

Again...insert the slidestop pin through the link and swing it to the in-battery position...and look closely at the small contact patch. That...and the front portion of the pinhole in the frame...is what absorbs the slide's energy and momentum. The frame will stand it. The lug feet...not so much.

And, as JimK noted...I've also seen Colt LW Commander frames with cracks in the bottoms of the pin holes from that impact. So, it's not exactly an insignificant stress.

Obviously, it will stand the impact occasionally. These warnings are mainly for people who stand around in front of a mirror, letting the slides slam...saying: "You talkin' to me?"

Or somethin' along the same lines.

 

[saltydog452]

My post 61 and the response in post 62

My experience with 8 rounds loaded into a std length 7 rd mag hasn't been as positive as those stated in post 62.

Those mags, in my way limited experience with std length OEM Colt 8 round mags and ACT, seem to present the top round up a bit higher. That may improve first round loading, but its not so good if the underside of the slide has to compress the ammo stack . Those 8 rounds are allready into some pretty tight quarters, additional compression at this time is more of a chore and, for me, less positive. In a stressful situtation, that probabally woundn't be a good thing.

That was a wordy attempt to restate what was said in post 61. We all have had different experiences. Those are mine.

Extended mags haven't had this bump in the highway.

salty

 

[Nom de Forum]

Yes...and cracking or shearing isn't the only damage that they can suffer. They can also become deformed, and allow the slide to ride further forward. That in itself isn't a major issue...but delaying linkdown can become one.

Again...insert the slidestop pin through the link and swing it to the in-battery position...and look closely at the small contact patch. That...and the front portion of the pinhole in the frame...is what absorbs the slide's energy and momentum. The frame will stand it. The lug feet...not so much.

And, as JimK noted...I've also seen Colt LW Commander frames with cracks in the bottoms of the pin holes from that impact. So, it's not exactly an insignificant stress.

Obviously, it will stand the impact occasionally. These warnings are mainly for people who stand around in front of a mirror, letting the slides slam...saying: "You talkin' to me?"

Or somethin' along the same lines.

I recall seeing at least one cracked frame hole for a slide stop on an ancient 1911 used at the 18B school that had thousands of rounds a year for decades put through it. I have to wonder if this issue with deformed lug feet has to be a very lengthy process unless the recoil spring used is really heavy. You obviously have more experience in these things than me so I defer to your opinion. Just how much normal cycling with ammunition and cycling with an empty chamber are we talking about here to cause deformed feet and cracked holes? I have seen oversized sear and thumb safety holes due to wear so I don't doubt it can happen at the slide stop hole.

 

[1911Tuner]

I recall seeing at least one cracked frame hole for a slide stop on an ancient 1911 used at the 18B school that had thousands of rounds a year for decades put through it.I have to wonder if this issue with deformed lug feet has to be a very lengthy process unless the recoil spring is really weak from use.

I've never seen a steel frame crack adjacent to the hole, but I have seen some of the old ones with elongated holes.
I've seen Colt LW Commanders that cracked there with as little as 5,000 rounds.

And a weak recoil spring would place less stress on the lug and slidestop pin...not more. I've been in the habit of going lighter on recoil springs rather than heavier. Recoil is softer, and there's none of the dreaded "frame battering" that we hear so much about.

I've fired a LW Commander right around 500 rounds over the course of the last 10-12 years...without a recoil spring in it at all as a demonstration...without any sign of impact abutment damage.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I've never seen a steel frame crack adjacent to the hole, but I have seen some of the old ones with elongated holes.
I've seen Colt LW Commanders that cracked there with as little as 5,000 rounds.

And a weak recoil spring would place less stress on the lug and slidestop pin...not more. I've been in the habit of going lighter on recoil springs rather than heavier. Recoil is softer, and there's none of the dreaded "frame battering" that we hear so much about.

I've fired a LW Commander right around 500 rounds over the course of the last 10-12 years...without a recoil spring in it at all as a demonstration...without any sign of impact abutment damage.

I was driving down the road when I realize I should have written heavier recoil spring. Obviously I had a headspace and timing issue!

 

[1911Tuner]

Obviously I had a headspace and timing issue!

Happens to me all the time.