Using Smokeless Powder

[Blimp Captain]

I've been debating the idea of conversion cylinders for a very long time. I just have trouble justifying spending as much on a cylinder as I did for the 1858. The reason I'm considering a conversion cylinder is I don't like having to clean the black powder out immediately after shooting it.

But instead of using a conversion cylinder can I just use a lesser amount of smokeless powder and load as normal? If this is possible, how much smokeless powder do I use?

I assume I would have to use less than you would with BP. How many grains is the smokeless equivelant for 30 grains of FFF? What kind of smokeless powder do they load in the cowboy loads for the conversion cylinders? Any thoughts? Sorry if I asked too many questions. I appreciate your time.

 

[Phillip Allen]

do NOT use smokless powder...if you don't want to clean it, don't shoot it. I've had a number of blown up guns come into the shop I worked at...there is always an excuse or rationale but the bottom line is...NO don't do it. No matter how badly you want it to be "okay" it still will not be okay and may put your eyes out and damage your person...AND you will be terribly embarrased even if you only break the gun.

wanna shoot and not clean...get a .22. they're cheap to shoot and can be had from pawn shops and the like for a song...lot of fun too

 

[Old Fuff]

Smokeless powder is faster burning then black, so the pressure curve peaks faster even if it doesn't go higher. This puts more strain on the cylinder, which are made out of steel that's compatiable with black powder pressures, but not smokeless. When a revolver is stamped, "for black powder only," you'd better believe it.

 

[Afy]

Should you still decide to go ahead and experiment with Smokeless... please do post pictures.

 

[Franco2shoot]

Cylinder exchange

Bite the bullet (sorry for the cliche) and get the R&D conversion cylinder for your 1858.

My dilemma was that almost all indoor ranges in my area forbid BP. The R&D cylinder allows you to shoot .45LC's and you can shoot them all day long. Cleaning is a breeze since the firing pin backplate comes off the cylinder. Just run a snake with some cleaner on it through barrel and cylinder. Yes, it cost me more than the gun itself (I got my Uberti on sale from a closing Cabela's) but the conversion cylinder has functioned flawlessly for the past 2 years.

KKKKFL

 

[LubeckTech]

Using smokeless powder in a BP reolver is not the answer and conversion cylinders are expensive but what can be done to make cleaning possibly easier? Are black powder substitutes any cleaner or easier to clean? What about commercial products or homebrews to aid in cleaning? Is there a good BP subsitiute that is easy to clean? I just scored a Ruger Stainless Old Army on Gunbroker unfired for $350 and would have got one sooner if it weren't for memories or a 1858 revolver I had 20 years ago. Fun to shoot but a pain to clean - I know stainless still needs to be cleaned as thoroughly as regular steel but have things gotten any better in recent times? I will eventually get a conversion cylinder for it to enjoy the best of both worlds.

 

[mykeal]

BP easier to clean?

The debate on a BP substitute that is as easy to clean as smokeless will go on forever.

IMHO, 777 is easier to clean than regular BP, but not by much if you clean regularly. I have noticed no ill effects from 777 even when left as long as a week without cleaning; I would never do that with regular BP. However, I'm just programmed to clean often and regularly, so I'll probably never find out if 777 has a point by which it must be cleaned.

Smokeless not only burns faster, it also burns much more completely. There just is no way to create a BP-equivalent smokeless load.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Sure it can be done and several have done it before. Unfortunately, they blew up their guns in the process. So, ask yourself if your willing to risk injury and chart the progression of charges until she blows?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The R&D conversion cylinders specify which smokeless brand of ammunition is appropriate. Further you can check the BP pressures for cartridges which the R&D cylinders are rated for, and choose an appropriate smokeless powder for use in cartridges with the R&D cylinder that are much below the BP pressures. P is P, and as long as you stay a good bit below the BP pressures you will have no problems. OR just buy the manufacturer's recommended factory smokeless loads and don't worry about handloading.

LD

P.S. Hogdon powder company rates 20 gr of Triple Seven in a .44 cap & ball at 7,600 CUP, while 5.0 grains of Titegroup in a .45 Colt with a 200 grain RNLFP bullet at only 4,700 CUP. I think an 1858 can handle it, my Army San Marco has so far.

 

[Plink]

Your black powder cylinder is not an enclosed system like cartridge guns are. It's not capable of taking the pressures that smokeless, even in light loads, generate. That's why they make the conversion cylinders.

 

[dwave]

I don't agree that it is because of the enclosed system, savage has a muzzle loader that can use smokeless. I believe it's because bp guns are made to handle lower pressures and smokeless has a different power curve. Even with the conversion cylinder you have to use Cowboy loads because the gun cannot handle the pressures of smokeless.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Uh, cowboy action loads ARE made with smokeless powder. The R&D cylinders don't say one must use BP cartridges, and they specify which brand of factory, smokeless cowboy loads may be used. One may also use BP cartridges.

Smokeless powders can be loaded in sufficient quantity to exceed the strength of the steel used in the BP revolver cylinders, as well as the R&D cylinders, and in fact, one can do it in a modern, cartridge gun (They don't have different data for Ruger Super Blackhawks and T/C Contenders in .45 Colt for nothin'!) For this reason, R&D has no control over you, the handloader, so they only recommend smokeless cowboy action loads that they know are loaded at a low enough pressure not to cause a problem. A person can do the same as a handloader, BUT you accept the consequences of an accident.

LD

 

[BigBlock]

Does anybody make a muzzleloading conversion cylinder that IS strong enough for smokeless? Or could someone have one made?

 

[dwave]

I mentioned the cowboy loads because they are loaded to be safe. I know that they use smokeless, but I mentioned them so somebody wouldn't get the idea of loading smokeless and loading too much turning their gun into a grenade. I guess I didn't word my post well enough to put that point in.

 

[Plink]

The Savage muzzleloader was designed from the ground up to use smokeless. It was designed with a sealed breech that could handle the pressure. Using smokeless, even in a modern sealed breech inline, that isn't designed for it, is asking for trouble. A cartridge conversion cylinder is the only safe way to do it.

 

[gezzer]

Buy a modern gun if you are to lazy to shoot black powder, you will be happier in the long run.

Cimmaron sells conversions that take factory ammo, IE light loads not sure as BP is not a hassle to me.

 

[Boom-stick]

Does anybody make a muzzleloading conversion cylinder that IS strong enough for smokeless? Or could someone have one made?

YEAP!!!

http://www.westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html

But he is based on our side of the pond

I've had some work done by him and he's made a few of my 'ideas' a reality, I also bought one of his own pistols.

 

[English Bob]

Intresting stuff about the conversion cylinders, but even if the cylinder is passed ok for smokeless the frame of the revolver more then likely isn't. Everything I have ever read wars strongly against using any smokeless powders in these revolvers. Even with very light loads, the frame will be subjected to pressures not normally accociated with BP or BP substitutes.

Many of the cowboy action loads are designed for closed frame revolvers, I'm sure they work well in open top conversions but these were never designed for such in the first place. As I don't own an open top conversion I do not know what they say about smokeless loads, but I would be certainly be tempted to load BP only in cartridges for such guns as they are fragile compared to a closed frame model.

Many old original cartridge guns often have cylinder end shake problems due to the fact that at one time in their long lives someone decided to use smokeless in them. As many of the Itallian BP cap and ball revolvers are designed for BP, the frames on the conversions will surely be the same and not 'beefed up' in any way! Just an opinion, but saftey first, your shooting hand and eyes are difficult to replace!

 

[Boom-stick]

westlake won't do them for open top guns, they have to be closed steel frames, (no brass) he mainly works on Rugers and Remingtons but the cylinders are made for the gun, you give it to him for manufacture and fitting and he sends in back.

There's a few other guys over doing it but seeing as they don't make their service as widely known it makes you doubt their skill?

EDIT: On a side note I use smokeless in a my FA mini revolver because it says you can in the hand book?

 

[Old Fuff]

Part of the problem with open-top (Colt) revolvers is that the barrel is held on by a key or wedge that goes through a slot in the end of the basepin. If the slot should crack outwards at the front corners things can come unglued in fast order. While the pressure generated by a smokeless load may (or may not) be greater then that caused by black powder, it comes much quicker. You can make a stronger cylinder (such as is used in modern cartridge guns) but the rest of the platform is made to specifications intended for black powder, and that's what the basic revolver is proofed to use. The original cartridge-converted revolvers were intended to be used with black powder, and unless the gun maker says otherwise it would be wise to do just that.