Utah restricts steel core bullets

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I'm no expert on BLM land regs since I'm not near any, but haven't read a law saying you can't shoot tracers on private land.

He's referring to Utah Code

65A-3-2. Wildland fire prevention -- Prohibited acts.
(1) A person is guilty of a class B misdemeanor who:
...
(d) fires any tracer or incendiary ammunition anywhere except within the confines of established military reservations.
...​

Kinda ironic that to perhaps save a couple birds or something from groaking on ingested lead shot or something, perhaps many fires are started via steel shot. steel is steel

I doubt steel shot has started many fires. Not a lot of folks are shooting steel shot in the desert for target practice. Lots are shooting steel core or steel jacketed stuff.

I have no idea if a copper-covered soft iron jacket will spark or not. I try not to shoot at rocks and target hangers.

One of the issues with the area that prompted much of this is that the hills people are using as backstops are covered with rocks and dry cheatgrass. You really don't have to try to hit a rock in that area, unfortunately. It just happens. While it might be a 1 in 100,000 chance you'll hit a rock just right and have the sparks go into the cheatgrass just right, there are hundreds of people who shoot thousands of rounds in the area.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's not a BLM reg, it's a state reg.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.I doubt steel shot has started many fires. Not a lot of folks are shooting steel shot in the desert for target practice. Lots are shooting steel core or steel jacketed stuff.

Since when is steel not steel? Never know. Also, many (most waterfowlers? .. I said I don't shotgun birds much) are mandated to have/use steel so what would Cletus use on a rock backed point-blank target of opportunity.. perhaps something he had/was required to have.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Since when is steel not steel?

I'm not sure why you are trying to frame the argument like that. Lots of things are made out of steel that are not being used in a way that might start wildfires. That doesn't mean that they aren't made of steel or that steel is not steel. It simply means that they aren't likely to be bounced off rocks at high speeds in areas at high risk of wildfires.

I suppose there may be a few people out there shooting clays with steel shot, but a 122-grain steel-jacketed bullet fired from a rifle at 2300+ fps towards the ground at an angle where it could easily skip off a few rocks is certainly going to behave differently than a few hundred pellets weighing an eighth of a grain each shot into the air at 1450 fps, particularly when 50 yards out the latter will be going at less that 600 fps and the former will still be moving at twice the speed of sound.

Also, many (most waterfowlers? .. I said I don't shotgun birds much) are mandated to have/use steel so what would Cletus use on a rock backed point-blank target of opportunity..

You seem to be missing some basic facts about the area in question.

1. Fire season typically starts in the late spring and runs into early fall.
2. Most waterfowl seasons in that area run from Oct 1 until the middle of January.
3. The area where these fires are starting isn't exactly waterfowl habitat.

The idea that someone is walking around that area shooting ducks sitting on rocks on a hill covered in cheatgrass and sagebrush at point blank ranges in May and June is simply asinine. I suppose there might be some place people hunt waterfowl with steel shot in a dry, rocky area with a high wildfire risk during the summer where "many fires are started via steel shot", but I don't know where that would be.

 

[Davek1977]

Tracers are already illegal on public land. I saw tome ammo marked 'tracer' in Sportsman's Warehouse a few weeks ago, and I called them on it, they said; "Would we sell it if it was illegal?" I bit it off and walked away.

I may be dense, but I don't see the issue here. If tracers are banned on public land, why would they be banned from sale in Sportsman's Warehouse? Possession and/or sale of tracer rounds isn't illegal in most locales, and a ban on shooting them on puublic land wouldn't mean a retail store couldn't sell them. Just because its illegal to have open alcohol containers in a public park doesn't mean the stores can't sell people beer.....if someone drinks in the park, its not the grocery store's fault for selling the beer. Just becasue somehting has an illegal use doesn't mean that lawful sales are prohibited in most circumstances. Retailers aren't responsible for people misusing their wares. Even a temporary order to not use such ammo ON ANY LAND wouldn't make sales of such ammo illegal.....unwise, possibly, but I agree with SW's here in that them selling the ammo IS NOT illegal unless I'm grossly misunderstanding or missing something here

 

[Swampman]

JohnBT:

From your post;


"Somebody actually ran a lab test on the stuff:

"Results

Jacket wt.-18.32grains Core wt.-105.422grains

Jacket 4.83% Cu (plating) 94.6% Fe .63% traces of Zn, Pb, Bi, Ni, Cr, Al

Core 98.65% Pb 1.3% Cu <.05% Al, Fe, Bi, Zn

Samples run on ICP-OES in aqueous acid solution (digestion), 10% Aqua Regia by volume.

Yes, 95% Iron jacket (not steel) with a 5% copper plating. Core is lead."

I guess they should have used the proper symbol for steel... Wait..There isn't one! Possibly because steel is a compound, not an element. Iron (fe) is the major component of steel. Many people, including the late Jeff Cooper (and myself) have looked for a dividing line between "iron" and "steel",
I haven't seen anything yet that defines it well enough that a layman can understand it.

In any case a "Lab" that runs an analysis of the percentage of various items that make up a substance and can't make it equal 100%, ain't much of a lab in my opinion...

4.83% Jacket Cu (plating)
94.6% Fe
.63% traces of Zn, Pb, Bi, Ni, Cr, Al"

If we take those figures we see that:

94.6%
+
4.83%
+
.63%
=
100.06%

????????????.....

If those lab guys had been taught by Sister Mary-Josephine in 2nd grade their knuckles would STILL be swollen!

Besides, what about nickel? It's magnetic and can certainly throw sparks if it impacts the wrong material at a high enough velocity.

Why should gun owners, of all people, attempt to give legislators any ideas on what additional items they should include in legislation, unless those ideas will actually increase public safety or prevent property loss?

Most responsible gun owners already know enough to curtail certain activities in times of high fire danger.

More restrictive laws won't curtail the mindless destruction caused by ignorant gun slobs. Mainly because gun slobs don't generally keep abreast of things like laws and newspapers until they actually get arrested or featured in the news for some idiotic act.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'll bet you a buck.....they aren't selling it now.

 

[Sam1911]

I'll take that action, just 'cause I'm curious if a copany will stop selling a legal product just because there are places where it would be illegal to shoot it nearby.

Please give them a call and ask if they've got any, sell any, or will order it.

 

[mljdeckard]

I need some primers, I'll go look.

 

[atomd]

Yeah, let's all go to sporting goods stores and "call them" on all the things they sell that could be used in some illegal manner....that really helps our cause.

Just because someone could use it illegally doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to sell it....assuming it's legal to sell. There isn't exactly a forest fire started by tracers epidemic going on.

 

[JohnBT]

To the layman, the definition of steel usually includes the word carbon. Type 'define steel' into Google and you get a long list that looks like this...

"Any of various modified forms of iron, artificially produced, having a carbon content less than that of pig iron and more than that of wrought iron, and having ..."

I'm sorry Sister Mary-Josephine traumatized your knuckles in 2nd grade. Was that the day the rest of the class was studying steel?

John

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm not sure why you are trying to frame the argument like that. Lots of things are made out of steel that are not being used to in a way that might start wildfires. That doesn't mean that they aren't made of steel or that steel is not steel. It simply means that they aren't likely to be bounced off rocks at high speeds in areas at high risk of wildfires.

I suppose there may be a few people out there shooting clays with steel shot, but a 122-grain steel-jacketed bullet fired from a rifle at 2300+ fps towards the ground at an angle where it could easily skip off a few rocks is certainly going to behave differently than a few hundred pellets weighing an eighth of a grain each shot into the air at 1450 fps, particularly when 50 yards out the latter will be going at less that 600 fps and the former will still be moving at twice the speed of sound.



You seem to be missing some basic facts about the area in question.

1. Fire season typically starts in the late spring and runs into early fall.
2. Most waterfowl seasons in that area run from Oct 1 until the middle of January.
3. The area where these fires are starting isn't exactly waterfowl habitat.

The idea that someone is walking around that area shooting ducks sitting on rocks on a hill covered in cheatgrass and sagebrush at point blank ranges in May and June is simply asinine. I suppose there might be some place people hunt waterfowl with steel shot in a dry, rocky area with a high wildfire risk during the summer where "many fires are started via steel shot", but I don't know where that would be.

It seems half simple to me. I've already posited something twice in quite simplistic terms and see no reason that a third go about would make you understand something so basic and simple.

 

[mljdeckard]

Maybe I'm just getting tired of wiping the ashes off my windshield.

 

[Swampman]

Certaindeaf:
Simple and basic?

Cast iron contains at least 2.1 percent carbon, does that mean that it's steel?

There are stainless steels that contain no carbon, does that make them iron?

As in most complex technical fields, positing something in simplstic terms may provide an answer, but it's usually wrong.

 

[mljdeckard]

I went, and they have it. I asked them about it, and they said it's not like military tracers, which burn much hotter. They said they haven't sold much lately.

Why does everyone think that I was insulting someone by asking a legitimate question?

 

[Sam1911]

Interesting! Thanks for checking.

There are some commercial tracer loadings (like "Tru-Tracer" ammo), and there is "cold tracer" training ammo like Glow Ammo. Not sure how incendiary any of it really is compared to the surplus stuff.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I was just in another LGS in the area and briefly looked for tracer ammo. The only stuff I saw were what appeared to be pulled tracers in the reloading section, but I didn't look that closely.