Va. gun owners go ballistic after NYC sues dealers

[Desertdog]

Va. gun owners go ballistic after NYC sues dealers
Raffle is named after Big Apple mayor, who is not amused
By Charisse Jones
USA TODAY
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070209/a_gunfeud09.art.htm

Virginia gun enthusiasts aren't backing away from a scrum with the Big Apple.

They're calling it the "Bloomberg Gun GiveAway," named for Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York City, which has sued more than two dozen out-of-state gun dealers and fired up gun owners in the process.

Until March 31, customers who spend $100 at one of two Virginia stores become eligible to win a handgun or rifle in an April drawing, courtesy of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun rights organization.

"We decided to step up and take care of our own," says Philip Van Cleave, the League's president. "We're trying to drive business to these stores to help them cover the financial cost of being sued."

The drawing is in response to two lawsuits filed by New York City in federal court last year against 27 out-of-state gun dealers who allegedly sold weapons later used in crimes committed in the city from 1994 to 2002.

The dealers, who are based in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia, sold firearms to private investigators hired by the city who were engaging in straw purchasing.

That's a transaction in which one person fills out the paperwork for another who is actually buying the gun. It is a violation of federal law to sell a gun when there is a reasonable belief that it is not for the person who claims to be the buyer.

Seven of the stores have settled with the city, agreeing to a court-appointed special master who will monitor them, mayoral spokesman Jason Post says. They must also receive training to prevent illegal sales in the future.

In May, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said it was reviewing whether the city acted legally. The city's hiring of investigators to conduct sting operations could be illegal, Department of Justice spokesman Bryan Sierra told the Associated Press on Thursday. "Potential legal liabilities" arise when civilians do the work of law enforcers, he said. The department has decided charges are not warranted against the dealers in the sting.

Asked recently about the Virginia raffle, Bloomberg said, "If they think that this is funny, I don't think that the parents or the spouses or the children of those that get killed with illegal guns would find that very entertaining."

Van Cleave says his group is just trying to help small businesses being unfairly targeted.

Many Virginia gun owners see the lawsuit "as nothing more than a political stunt that's costing people their business and in turn hurting gun owners," he says.

Dennis Alverson, who has owned Old Dominion Guns and Tackle in Danville, Va., for 27 years, is one of two store owners participating in the giveaway.

"We are fighting it," he says of the litigation. "We do everything possible to promote or sell the guns legally. … Once the gun leaves the store, we have no control over it."

 

[Robert Hairless]

What in the world is an "illegal gun"? Does anyone know?

I know what an "illegal mayor" is. An illegal mayor is a mayor who behaves illegally, such as one who hires agents provacateurs to induce businessmen in other cities to break the law and conspires with them to commit such crimes across state lines. The most notable example of an illegal mayor seems to be the mayor of New York City, Michael Bloomberg, although he might have induced many other mayors to engage in similar criminal activities, and perhaps they are doing it too. If so, I wonder if the RICO statute might apply to them all. The Big Apple evidently is rotten and has a worm in it.

But I don't know what an "illegal gun" is, because guns don't behave in any way at all: a gun is a machine that has no knowledge of laws. Anyone?

 

[crazed_ss]

When they say "illegal gun", they're referring to guns that are illegally owned.

Certain people are prohibited by law from owning firearms.. felons, insane people, illegals, etc.

 

[gm]

There was a write-up in my local paper here in ohio too but it was more towards a do nothing approach,as in bloomers getting what amounts to a slap on the wrist.

Its good to hear someone is taking advantage of it and making something positive out of it.I'd like to it all backfire on bloomers,bigtime!I personally might get another gun myself just to spite him and I'd recommend everyone else doing the same.


Hats off to VA,hopefuly this will spread.

 

[tinygnat219]

I don't know about the Commonwealth of VA fighting it, but the VCDL sure is. We've instituted a Bloomberg Gun giveaway at the stores fighting the lawsuits, essentially for every 100 bucks spent at one of the two stores, it gives the buyer a chance in a raffle to win a rifle, or pistol. We've also instituted a Legal Defense fund to assist the stores with legal bills associated with these frivolous lawsuits.

The ATF letter was the best news we have had in this battle for our rights (wierd huh?, good news coming from them? ). Hopefully, we can convince the Commonwealth's Attorney to go after the agents and Bloomberg for violating VA and Federal Law.

 

[FieroCDSP]

The ATF letter was the best news we have had in this battle for our rights (wierd huh?, good news coming from them? ). Hopefully, we can convince the Commonwealth's Attorney to go after the agents and Bloomberg for violating VA and Federal Law.

The ATF is just ticked off that someone is stepping on their toes, then over their heads, on something they've been trying to do for years, but have been legally impared from doing. I'm not sure rights of gun-owners have anything to do with the ATF's letter. It'd be interesting to do a looksie into whether the RICO statutes would apply to Bloomberg and his merry men.

 

[grimjaw]

"illegal guns"

Next up, illegal knives, illegal cars, and illegal potato chips.

jm

 

[Guntalk]

Philip Van Cleave, president of Virginia Citizens Defense League, will be a guest on the radio show tomorrow, at 3:00pm Eastern.

 

[Leatherneck]

That's good, Tom; Phil is a dedicated activist who has been instrumental over the last decade in reforming Virginia laws.

I myself am heading down to Danville to get about ten chances in the drawing by buying a vintage 1911. I can get it locally, and cheaper, but I want to add my own sputum in Bloomberg's eye.

TC

 

[Robert Hairless]

When they say "illegal gun", they're referring to guns that are illegally owned.

Certain people are prohibited by law from owning firearms.. felons, insane people, illegals, etc.

I wondered if that was what Bloomberg meant, but if that's what he means the guns aren't "illegal." They are "illegally owned guns."

If New York City's laws are being violated, the city's Mayor needs to operate within those laws and that city. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that mayors automatically become federal agents charged with the duty to enforce federal laws.

I know how to solve any of New York City's problems that Mayor Bloomberg can't handle. It's easy. Get a competent mayor who can solve those problems.

 

[davhina]

What in the world is an "illegal gun"?

One that commits crimes, don't ya know

 

[RNB65]

Richmond Times-Dispatch story --

Mr. Bloomberg, you can't win this
Gun shop owners fight N.Y. suits by giving away a gun

BY JOE MACENKA
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
Saturday, February 10, 2007

Next to the cash register of the Bob Moates Sport Shop in Chesterfield County, near the tanks of live bait, is a sign telling customers about the Bloomberg Gun GiveAway.

For every $100 that customers spend at the sporting goods and Civil War-relics dealership, they get one ticket for a chance to win a gun in a drawing held by the Virginia Citizens Defense League. The rules include a list of who is eligible to win, as well as a list of who isn't, among them New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and his immediate family members.

When Bloomberg began suing gun shop owners across the South in the spring for allowing "straw purchases," when one person buys a gun for another person, it looked like a mismatch featuring powerful Gotham vs. rural America.

But Moates, 72, and another Virginia gun shop owner in Danville are fighting the lawsuits, and they've got thousands of supporters -- and a hefty increase in sales -- to back them up.

Instead of curbing gun sales and producing a settlement, Bloomberg's lawsuits have sparked significant sales growth for the two dealers and unified defiance from gun-rights advocates in Virginia.

Moates said that since he was sued by Bloomberg in December, sales have increased 50 percent at his stores in Chesterfield and Charlotte Court House. That increase, he said, is directly due to the support from the defense league and others, and that support is a key reason he has no intention of settling with Bloomberg.

"To cave in to him," Moates said, "is like to cave in to Hitler."

John Feinblatt, Bloomberg's criminal justice coordinator, said the office is trying to keep illegal guns out of New York.

"We're attacking the problem of illegal guns from both sides -- supply and demand," he said. "On the supply side, we're going after irresponsible dealers, and on the demand side, we're going after gun offenders."

Dennis Alverson said sales are up 25 percent to 35 percent at his store in Danville, and he has no plans to settle with Bloomberg.

"I think it was just his intention of going after the small people, the ones he can intimidate," Alverson said. "But I've gotten letters from people I've never heard of who just happen to be members of the VCDL, saying to keep up the good work and to stand strong."

Gun-rights advocates are making contributions to help defray the legal expenses of Moates and Alverson. Backers also have organized the gun promotion at the two men's stores.

"It's a good battle," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the defense league, a gun-rights advocacy group that claims 3,300 paid members and another 5,400 people on its e-mail distribution list. "We feel like we're protecting our rights as citizens. We're also drawing a line in the sand when it comes to New York governing us."

The league plans to give away two guns to contest winners at its April 19 meeting.

Bloomberg's office, citing an effort to stem the flow of illegally purchased firearms into New York, filed two lawsuits last year against 27 gun dealers from such states as Georgia, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia.

According to Bloomberg's office, private investigators working in teams of two traveled to the dealerships and carried out straw purchases at the stores.

One of the investigators made all the inquiries about buying the gun, then had the other one fill out the required federal forms to pass the background check. The approach was meant to mimic the way felons, who cannot own firearms, purchase them anyway by having someone else fill out the paperwork.

The U.S. Department of Justice has questioned the mayor's office's use of private investigators to do the work of law-enforcement officers. The department said it would not file criminal charges against the gun dealers.

"The decision by the Department of Justice not to pursue criminal charges has no bearing on our civil litigation," Feinblatt said. "Our goal has always been to get dealers whose guns most frequently end up in the hands of criminals to play by the rules. Our goal has never been to send dealers to jail or drive them out of business."

Bloomberg's office is trying to reach settlements that call for the gun dealers to have federal oversight of their sales practices. So far, seven of the defendants have settled.

"It's really a deal with the devil," the defense league's Van Cleave said. "We really believe that anybody who signs that agreement, your days are numbered. You'll go out of business."

Alverson concurred, noting that the terms call for the oversight to last for three years, "but if you do something that they deem a violation, it starts all over. So they could keep this going on forever and ever."

Moates and Alverson say they have done nothing wrong.

"I'm very disappointed an American citizen would go to all this trouble to alienate other Americans in other parts of the country," said Moates, who counts Civil War re-enactments among his hobbies and is known for portraying Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee.

Moates has taped to one of the display racks in his crowded Hull Street Road store a copy of an article in the December issue of "Guns & Ammo" magazine titled, "The six most anti-gun people in America." The article features bios and photographs of the six, who include Bloomberg.

Van Cleave said the Bloomberg Gun GiveAway grew out of the defense league's desire to do something more than merely contribute to the two dealers' defense funds. Both dealers welcomed the idea, and Moates even suggested the name for the promotion.

Each of the two guns being offered for the drawings has a retail value of nearly $1,000, and Van Cleave said defense league members are offering more prizes, including a gas grill worth more than $1,000 that one member wants to donate.

"This is infuriating gun owners," Van Cleave said. "You should be upset about some mayor from some other city trying to impose his will on you."

Alverson questioned how much of an impact suing him could have on violent crime in New York, and said he believes Bloomberg is using the suits to make a political statement.

"I can't control the sale of guns once they leave my store," Alverson said, "any more than Bloomberg can control the drug dealers from New York once they come down here."

Contact staff writer Joe Macenka at [email protected] or (804) 649-6804.

 

[gunsmith]

I had an illegal gun once

so I put it in prison, then it got religion, got rehab, and now is leading a productive life

 

[Desertdog]

Gotta love this.

Instead of curbing gun sales and producing a settlement, Bloomberg's lawsuits have sparked significant sales growth for the two dealers and unified defiance from gun-rights advocates in Virginia.

Moates said that since he was sued by Bloomberg in December, sales have increased 50 percent at his stores in Chesterfield and Charlotte Court House. That increase, he said, is directly due to the support from the defense league and others, and that support is a key reason he has no intention of settling with Bloomberg.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

What These Guns Are

These guns are tools. Nothing more. As has been said, the problem lies with whomever owns them in the eyes of the law(not necessarily the Constitution, mind you).

If you wish to put a label on these guns, guns bought and sold by or into criminal hands are guns bought and sold in defiance of unconstitutional law. Guns bought and sold by or into the hands of the law abiding are guns bought and sold regardless of, and in compliance with, unconstitutional law.

Abide the Second Amendment and all criminality will disappear from trading, owning, and bearing arms. Law enforcement will then be forced to catch, try, and imprison the actual perpetrators of the the crime. It ain't the gun that causes the criminal to commit crime. Look at politics and money. Money doesn't cause corruption, the corrupt misuse money. Thusly, criminals misuse guns. Lock them BOTH up!

Woody

How many times must people get bit in the (insert appropriate anatomical region) before they figure out that infringing upon rights sets the stage for the detrimental acts those rights are there to deter? B.E.Wood

 

[El Tejon]

To Bloomberg and his ilk, all guns are illegal. Just imagine the outrage if the Mayor of NYC or another city was doing this with something that the Left loved like porn or abortions.

These scumbags in NYC must be stopped as they are direct threat to our civil rights. I hope the Justice Department takes notice and RICOs New York City.

 

[Wolfgang]

(SOUTHSIDE) -- OFFICIALS IN THE U. S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAY UNDERCOVER GUN BUYS MADE AT TWO GUN SHOPS IN DANVILLE AND SOUTH BOSTON MAY HAVE BEEN ILLEGAL. AS A RESULT, NEITHER OF THE DEALERS WILL BE PROSECUTED. THE SHOP OWNERS WERE THE TARGETS OF PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS HIRED BY THE CITY OF NEW YORK WHO POSED AS BUYERS AND MADE "STRAW" PURCHASES. IN SUCH A PROCEDURE, A BUYER FILLS OUT THE PAPERWORK FOR A GUN THAT IS SOLD TO . . . SOMEONE ELSE! THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NOW SAYS THOSE UNDERCOVER BUYERS MAY HAVE BROKEN THE LAW THEMSELVES. NEW YORK OFFICIALS SAID GUNS SOLD IN FIVE STATES WERE USED IN CRIMES COMMITTED THERE. GUN RIGHTS ADVOCATES ARE PRAISING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S DECISION NOT TO PROSECUTE THE DEALERS AS A "SIGNIFICANT VICTORY." THE SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION HAD CRITICIZED THE STING OPERATION.


http://www.wbtm1330.com/1news.htm

 

[MICHAEL T]

What in the world is an "illegal gun"?

Its not a illegal gun .Its a undocumented gun. That has crossed the NY border looking for work. Just willing to do jobs Colt and S&W won't do.

 

[romma]

Mayor Blomberg is an ardent supporter of 2nd ammendment rights... I know this because his form letter he sent me in reply to my letter back when this whole thing started told me so...

 

[Robert Hairless]

One of the investigators made all the inquiries about buying the gun, then had the other one fill out the required federal forms to pass the background check.

Oh my Moronic Manhattanite!

That's exactly what I've seen husbands do with their wives, perhaps hundreds of times! I've seen fathers do it with their sons, friends do it with other friends, and just about anyone who knows something about guns do it with just about anyone who doesn't know much and wants help. And all this time I never knew it was wrong!

I've spent a lot of time in New York City and witnessed this very same illegal activity occurring before my very eyes at restaurants, theaters, hotels, museums, taxicabs, and just about everywhere else. I've seen people pick up the check for an entire table full of people. I've seen women in restaurants tell their dates what they wanted for dinner, then watched the men pay the check.

All of this has been going on for decades in front of my very nose but I've been too stupid to realize I've been in a hotbed of crime.

No wonder Mayor Bloomberg is so concerned. He lives in the midst of millions of criminals who do such things all the time. If it's wrong, he does need to stop it. The obvious first step, though, is to for the New York City Police Department to arrest every husband and wife in that city. Gay couples must not be exempted: they are not above the law, nor would they wish to be treated differently. I hope that the NYPD throws every father and son, mother and daughter, and everyone else into jail as soon as possible.

Mayor Bloomberg is right: as soon as he arrests everyone else in the city, its crime rate will drop almost entirely and there will be only one criminal left. Hillary can do a citizens arrest on him. Mayor Bloomberg looks good in striped suits: very fetching. He and Bubba can sing "I'll Take Manhattan" after their romantic interludes.

 

[romma]

I was revolver shopping one day a couple of years ago for my girlfriend, and I was asking a whole slew of questions and explaining to my GF what I meant and why I was asking and the clerk called us on it, asking who the end user was for the gun? and which one of us had the permit (in CT you need a permit to purchase)? I told him we both had permits and he calmed down..

 

[DonP]

Tapping foot patiently ...

I'm still waiting for Bloomie, Daley, or any of the other gun grabbing mayors in this hellish coalition of stupidity, to "lead by example" and publicly announce that they are disbanding their armed bodyguard detail.

Come on mayors! Who'll be first to show us that we don't need to protect ourselves in your fair cities? Get rid of that bodyguard detail, ride the subways or El's and bus lines with the rest of us "proles". I suggest a late night ride on the El Orange line to get to know your constituency a lot better, sort of at point blank range.

They all have a 24/7 bodyguard detail for their family from their police force and they are all armed. But Bloomie & Co. should announce to the world that he will not have those evil guns anywhere near themselves or their family members, being protected at taxpayer cost.

We'd all be so impressed by your courage mayor Bloomberg.

Talk about arrogance, Daley's new re-election TV ads show Daley riding through Chicago neighborhoods in a chauffer driven limo with his bodyguard in the shotgun seat.