Valid Concerns Or Have I Become An Old Curmudeon?

[otisrush]

I'd be interested in others' opinions on the following. I'm not sure whether my reactions are "valid" or whether I'm turning into a grumpy old man. To set the stage: I'm 49. I probably started shooting when I was 9. My dad was an avid gun enthusiast - both modern and antique. Guns, in some form, were the core of what we did. And he was RELENTLESS about safety. He felt very strongly about how things should be done from a safety, handling, etc. perspective. I took about a 20 yr break from shooting - until I saw my son wanting to get Air Soft guns and have wars with his friends in the backyard. "Nope. No way I'll let you do that." Then I gave him the .22 I learned on and we've been actively shooting for the last 5+ years. "You want to shoot guns? Let's really shoot real guns." Now I'm trying to pass on what my dad taught me.

My son and I were at the range yesterday and some things happened that I pretty strongly reacted to. Our club's range is on a ranch. Half of the firing line are tables where one can sit. The other half of the firing line are covered shooting stations with a flat wooden platform in front of a table. The tables in these covered stalls are like the tables on the other end of the line - where one can sit. The platforms can be used to shoot prone. It's probably 10-13' from the back of the bench to the front of the platform. There are no partitions between these covered shooting stalls.

There was a group of 3 guys who had some semi-auto rifles with probably 30 round mags. They were hotter than .223s but not .30-06. They have a heavy duty metal target at 100 yds. They are just PELTING this metal target. They're certainly firing faster than 1 round/second. They almost always had two guys shooting - certainly at greater than 1 round per second. They'd empty a mag, insert a full one, and keep going. After a while one of the guys goes to his car and brings out another ammo can filled with mags.

Now (finally) what happened:
1. They were yucking it up, talking quite loud, joking around, and just generally making a commotion. While I don't think that is anything to bring up with them, it made me uneasy because it just makes me wonder if they're applying all their faculties on the danger of the tools being used.
2. At one point one of the guys was shooting standing up at the FRONT of the flat platform. The stall to the left of him was empty. The stall to the left of that empty one had a shooter, who was at the BACK of the stall - sitting at the table. So that means there was a shooter ~5-10 ft to the side and ~10+' in front of a shooter. It makes me want to bring up to range mgmt the question whether we need to formally state what the firing line actually is in that situation. It made me uneasy that a fairly mild lateral pointing of the rear gun could hit the guy in front.
3. At one point one of the guys in question decided to change shooting stalls. (The range was hot.) He took 2-3 steps back (behind the firing line) with his gun pointed up. He walked down a couple of stalls and began firing. I watching him pretty closely. He didn't cycle the action. The mag was in the gun. He just started shooting. So I'm concluding he had a chambered round when he stepped back and walked down the firing line. On the one hand he always had the gun pointed in a safe direction. On the other hand, the thought of bringing a loaded gun behind the firing line threw me.

OK. For #1: It's just me being nervous. If those were my kids I'd "correct" them - but if others are doing it - I know where to pick my battles.

For #2 and #3: Do those stories cause other concerns? Is it time to talk to a board member (in the spirit of reinforcing rules for everyone - not tattle on someone - I don't even know the guys' names) or should I take a chill pill?

OR

 

[CoastieShep]

Doesn't sound like they were paying attention to anything outside their little group. While changing lanes with a loaded gun is considered bad, I don't think I could count how many hundreds of miles I've walked while hunting with a loaded gun. Safety on and pointed in a safe direction the whole time of course. My point, they weren't following the rules for your range and yes, that's wrong. Changing lanes with a loaded gun, (hopefully on safe) might be wrong, but it's not a major safety hazard. At least he wasn't covering everybody with the muzzle, and kept it pointed in a safe direction.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

well

yes and yes
its part of the price we pay for being experienced and knowing how quickly things can go wrong. i sometimes hate it

 

[Sniderman]

The short version, YES, these are very legitimate concerns!

(1) not being focused on the seriousness of the endeavor you're involved in is the precursor of a lot of the "Our top story tonight" news reports, (If It Bleeds, It Leads)

(2) Scary! a staggered line of fire ie no longer a LINE of fire!

(3) BAD Firearm handling! Open and Unloaded off the line of fire is not at an individual's option.

#2 and 3 would get you ejected from the private outdoor range I shoot at, I've seen people lose their membership immediatelyfor just such actions.

(4) your observations are very astute and valid, however this in itself doesn't exclude you from still being an old curmudgeon!

 

[franconialocal]

I would definately bring it up to the management of the range.....both the layout issues you spoke of AND behavior "problems".
The actions of these young men may be a problem in-and-of itself but the standing range rules should be hitting on these issues as well and the Ranger should be correcting the issue. If these points are clearly spelled out in the rules then it is up to mgmt. to enforce them. Is this a supervised facility? (e.g. staff on hand all the time?)

I wrote this in an older post too, but to stress again.....I really don't know how you guys do it (those of you that use a public range)!! I would go bonkers having to jockey around these types of problems.

Your head is in the right place about your concerns.

 

[Liberty1776]

that's some of the reasons my gun club has a range officer on every shooting line...

 

[Packman]

If you're an old curmudgeon, then I guess I'm a young curmudgeon. I'd have to agree with most of your concerns, if not all of them.

I think that having shooters forward of other people on the line is flat out stupid. I was on the Trap range one day, and it was my turn to go. I shouldered my 870 and was about to call the bird when the guy to my left steps forward of the line to pick up his empty hulls. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and dropped the gun back to low ready and opened the action. Everyone on the line gave him the stinkeye. Had the bird gone left, and he been forward of the line, my gun barrel would have wound up pretty dadgum close to his head. I doubt he'd have appreciated that.

I don't appreciate people making a commotion, but if they're hitting their targets, I generally assume they're paying enough attention to not be a danger to me. I still keep a weather eye on them though.

If you wanna move stalls, I have no issue with that. KEEP YOUR MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION. It would make me feel a whole lot better to see the action open too, but if that muzzle points at me, I am not a happy camper, action open or not.

Embrace your inner curmudgeon! When I'm old, I plan to build a playground in my yard, just so I can yell at those darn kids to "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

 

[MaterDei]

They were enjoying the sport and doing so without breaking the 4 rules. I salute them, and you for doing the same. They just happen to enjoy the sport in a different way than you do. Yes, you're being an old curmudgeon.

 

[9mmforMe]

I think your concerns are completely valid. These men were clearly unsafe and potentially just a mistake away from tragedy. I personally would have alerted the range staff and may have even left the range. My child would also know that this type of behavior is totally unaccpetable, sounds like he probably knows that already.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I do see issues, but I don't see a Your going to die right now.... moment

The two I personally would get pissed about would be the hot gun behind the firing line, and being forward of the firing line...

at least they were safe enough not to hurt anyone or be hurt.

 

[9mmforMe]

There are no shades of grey when it comes to safety, when you fall into the murkiness of being "sort of safe" people get hurt or killed. The 4 rules are imperatives and IMO so are the range rules of any particular range which you frequent.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Your Right and those men were be dangerous!

 

[altitude_19]

I've not heard of a fundamental "No hot weapons behind the firing line" rule, but such a rule is common at ranges in the US. If that is a rule at your range, they are clearly deviating from procedure, but I have been at ranges where this is common and accepted, as long as you observe fundamentals by keeping your trigger finger clear and muzzle awareness.
Standing forward of the firing line may prompt someone to point a weapon at you, and is consequently a violation of the Four Commandments even if it is someone else holding the weapon. Stepping in front of a weapon is just as bad as pointing it at someone you don't intend to kill...the only difference is whose life is in jeopardy.

 

[Onward Allusion]

otisrush
Valid Concerns Or Have I Become An Old Curmudeon?

Some valid concerns. You need to bring it to club management's attention. The most glaring was the issue with shooting in front of the firing line.

Switching lanes while the range is hot is poor etiquette, especially with a loaded weapon. Dangerous? Probably not if the 4's were followed. As for rapid firing, not a big issue (to me) as long as the weapon & shots are in control, and it also depends on your club's rules.

Got a few questions concerning your club/range. Isn't there a range officer present? Are range rules posted close together? Is the firing line clearly delineated?

 

[hso]

Range rules need to be clearly laid out at the start of membership and they need to be posted at the range so they can be reviewed (or pointed out) when any question exists.

Bring this issue up with the club and suggest that basic rules be printed up on metal signs by a local sign company and that the firing line be clearly delineated to make it easier for everyone to see where the hot and not zones are.

 

[00]

To answer your question, I believe you need to take a chill pill. Your post stated the shooter always pointed the gun in a safe direction so why worry? So they're noisy....it is a range.

The best thing that can happen is to have a range officer on the range at all times. If none are present, these scenarios are difficult to handle on a member vs. member basis.

 

[otisrush]

Got a few questions concerning your club/range. Isn't there a range officer present? Are range rules posted close together? Is the firing line clearly delineated?

There isn't a formal range officer on staff. A shooter on the line becomes the range officer (and is allowed to shoot when the range is hot) and is responsible for getting consensus and acknowledgment for a change in range status. When that person leaves the range they're allowed to pick the next one. If you're picked you're it unless you can convince someone else to do it.

Rules are posted at the range. While I didn't re-read them while I was there I did so a few hours ago. I've sent a mail to one of the board members - in the spirit of "How do the rules apply to these experiences I had?".

The firing line is not clearly delineated - if by that you mean literally a line in the dirt.

The fast shooting was a minor concern. The range rules do prohibit burst and bump shooting. I don't know if that is specific enough of a rule to enable what I saw be covered as a violation.

There is a very clear priority of concern to me and I'm trying to keep things in perspective and not blow things out of proportion. From least concern to highest concern:
1. The demeanor of the 3 shooters. I fully agree different people and styles partake of this sport in different ways. Who am I to try and say what is acceptable for friends' interaction? While *I* wouldn't want that in *my* group it's not a serious concern for me. The most it did was put my own antenna up - which is probably why I noticed the other items.
2. Loaded gun behind the firing line. Yes - the 4 rules were not violated. This is not addressed in the range rules. It seems to me the guy effectively moved the firing line backward when he did this.
3. The guy shooting at the front of the stall. This, to me, is the biggie. On the one hand we've got two adults. Either one of them could have been uncomfortable and done something about the situation. The closet libertarian in me put me in the mode of leaving them alone. That's their business. On the other hand I certainly don't want someone to get hurt, and also be a black eye on the sport - or get our range shut down.

Thanks very much for the helpful replies. I appreciate it.

OR

 

[JTHunter]

None of you are being "curmudgeons", young or old. You are making well-reasoned observations about a fellow shooter that didn't have any concern for his own safety, or anybody else's either.
While I don't have an objection to the rapid fire sequence, it should be cleared with the RO first (if there is one). As for this person being in front of the firing line with other shooters active at the same time, sounds like this person is a candidate for a "Darwin award".

 

[stickhauler]

I belong to a private club and any of the things you described would have earned these guys an instant ejection, with encouragement to never return.

It doesn't have to be a "I'm going to die" moment for something very bad to happen. I for one salute you for bringing this type of behavior to the attention of the management of the range. Just following the "4 rules" does not insure everything is cool. IMHO, if these people feel a need to "enjoy their sport" in such a manner, I'd advise them to find an area 50 miles for everyone and have their little "mad minute." Just not around me.

I think the important thing to remember in this scenario, the OP had his son with him. He's trying to teach his son as his father before him did, to impart a sense of safe firearm handling that while more cautious than some agree with, it's how he learned, and how he wants his son to practice. These guys flat out undermined what he's trying to impart to his son.

I guess many of us are guilty of allowing people like this to do as they wish in each and every range situation, and the hell with posted rules. As we stand silent, we in effect encourage those who refuse to follow posted rules. If they're not challenged, they continue to become more resistant to the rules until they're out of control.

We get a lot of newer shooters at our range, we're a private club but allow non-members to shoot at a higher fee per hour. And trust me, we've seen some real "doofuses" at our range. They get one chance to change their behavior, if their actions were not, in the eye of the range officer, terribly out of bounds of the rules. If they continue in their actions, the RO tells them again, and if range personnel aren't able to remove them from the range, members assist in removing them. Members rarely have to assist, we have some pretty big boys running the place/

 

[Jesse Heywood]

IMO, your range needs to make it so that there is a common firing line. No benches set back. There should also be a physical barrier, such as a 2x4 across the front of the stalls. Everyone walks down the end of the aisle to change targets. Also, whoever is the range cop needs to have the authority and the will to stop all firing until things are safe.

These items should be addressed at the next meeting. If you don't feel safe at a range, stop going. The well-being of your family is at risk.

 

[otisrush]

These guys flat out undermined what he's trying to impart to his son.
/

A quick thought: These events actually were very helpful with regards to conversations with my son.

On the positive side of the day we experienced the other extreme. While we were packing up a guy said "Is that a Remington 511? I collect them." He came over, gave us all sorts of comments and knowledge about the Remington 500 series, gave us his number so I can call him and he'll decipher the manufacturing date code, etc. It was a great example of how nice folks in the sport can be.

OR

 

[wankerjake]

I think a mixture of both. The firing line should be drawn, no gray area. If the guy moved from lane to lane with the firearm pointed in a safe direction...that's a gray area. If the range is hot...I would have cleared the chamber but if the rules don't state it then you can't really yell at him. Muzzle awareness is more reliable than "I took one out". BUT, the sad fact is that people have become lax about how (I think) firearms should be treated. It think guns have turned into a luxury instead of a tool, but hey...I'm just a dumb 27 year-old kid.

When I was a youngster, we didn't shoot at ranges but if somebody was being unsafe with a firearm my dad was quick to point it out to me. I turned out ok

You care about your kid and think safety is a legitimate concern. That's more than half the battle, sir.

 

[SmokeySam81]

I would definitely agree that the biggie is the firing line, and perhaps slowing down enough to have a clue of what's going on around you, which it sounded like they didn't. Unless you are a unit (military) training to fire and move together there is absolutely no reason to be staggered, and though I might argue the others, i would never compromise the firing line.

Also, on top of the 4 rules/commandments, don't forget the fifth (particularly in the field): Know your target and consider its background.

 

[jhco50]

Personally I think you are over reacting. It sounds like they were always pointed in a safe direction. People should be able to enjoy shooting and not always have to be completely serious about everything as long as they are being safe.

If shooting isn't fun, then it will die out for lack of interest. Yes, you are an old curmudgeon.

 

[Justin]

They were hotter than .223s but not .30-06. They have a heavy duty metal target at 100 yds.

While that's considered close placement for a steel target, it's not inherently unsafe. I've put steel auto poppers and the like at 100 yards before for doing rifle practice. It can result in accelerated wear and tear on the target, but doesn't present an undue safety hazard so long as proper procedures are followed, including the wearing of eye protection.

They are just PELTING this metal target. They're certainly firing faster than 1 round/second.

Were their rounds hitting the target or leaving the berm? If they were hitting the target, the speed with which the rounds are fired is not terribly important. A fair to middling IPSC or 3 Gun shooter can easily fire four or more rounds a second and hit what they're aiming at.

They almost always had two guys shooting - certainly at greater than 1 round per second. They'd empty a mag, insert a full one, and keep going. After a while one of the guys goes to his car and brings out another ammo can filled with mags.

Eh. Probably not the best use of practice ammunition, and they were probably turning money into noise rather than actually trying to test their skills, but I fail to see how this is unsafe so long as no rounds were leaving the range.

Now (finally) what happened:
1. They were yucking it up, talking quite loud, joking around, and just generally making a commotion. While I don't think that is anything to bring up with them, it made me uneasy because it just makes me wonder if they're applying all their faculties on the danger of the tools being used.

Were they following the four rules? Did they observe proper procedure when the range was called cold?

2. At one point one of the guys was shooting standing up at the FRONT of the flat platform. The stall to the left of him was empty. The stall to the left of that empty one had a shooter, who was at the BACK of the stall - sitting at the table. So that means there was a shooter ~5-10 ft to the side and ~10+' in front of a shooter.

This is the only thing that strikes me as presenting a possible safety issue, and if you or the other shooter at the bench were concerned with safety, a cease fire should have been called and the situation explained to the guy standing forward of the line.

It makes me want to bring up to range mgmt the question whether we need to formally state what the firing line actually is in that situation. It made me uneasy that a fairly mild lateral pointing of the rear gun could hit the guy in front.

This is a valid concern, and one worth considering codifying into the rules.

3. At one point one of the guys in question decided to change shooting stalls. (The range was hot.) He took 2-3 steps back (behind the firing line) with his gun pointed up. He walked down a couple of stalls and began firing. I watching him pretty closely. He didn't cycle the action. The mag was in the gun. He just started shooting.

In moving from one stall to the other, did the shooter break any of the four rules?

So I'm concluding he had a chambered round when he stepped back and walked down the firing line. On the one hand he always had the gun pointed in a safe direction. On the other hand, the thought of bringing a loaded gun behind the firing line threw me.

Again, while I can maybe see how this could be considered poor etiquette, nothing about it seems to strike me as presenting an actual safety issue.

Do those stories cause other concerns? Is it time to talk to a board member (in the spirit of reinforcing rules for everyone - not tattle on someone - I don't even know the guys' names) or should I take a chill pill?

What, if any, of their actions broke the four rules of gun safety? If they were handling their guns safely, I see no reason to ask the board to draft further rules tying shooters down to benches.

Were they actually being unsafe, or was it an issue of their firearms and shooting style making you uncomfortable?