Valid Concerns Or Have I Become An Old Curmudeon?

[Bovice]

I can't see how anything they did would make you mad. It sounds like the only fault here is that some moron put shooting platforms BEHIND the benchrest shooting area. It makes NO difference from a safety standpoint if he were standing or lying prone, in terms of being able to sweep the guy to the left of him at the forward bench position.

If they were letting rounds off as you say, and consistently pelting that 100 yard steel target, there's something to be said about their abilities depending on the size of that target. The 1 round/second rule is a pretty dumb rule to say the least. Are you standing there with a shot timer? As long as those shots are headed downrange and into a suitable backstop there is no harm done.

What SHOULD be brought up to the club management/owner is the staggered firing line. The rest is just you being old and forgetting to drink your metamucil that morning.

 

[stickhauler]

A quick thought: These events actually were very helpful with regards to conversations with my son.

But I'd venture to say it was more in teaching him what not to do rather than want to emulate them. Or him seeing a perfect example of what not to do.

On the positive side of the day we experienced the other extreme. While we were packing up a guy said "Is that a Remington 511? I collect them." He came over, gave us all sorts of comments and knowledge about the Remington 500 series, gave us his number so I can call him and he'll decipher the manufacturing date code, etc. It was a great example of how nice folks in the sport can be.

Oh, I agree, there are a lot of really great people in the sport. I generally take one of my M-1 Carbines along if I'm planning to shoot outside. And in those cases, it gets a lot of attention from others there.

I had a chance to make an old soldier's day because of bringing one along a few months back. There was a group shooting beside me, grandfather, father and son. Grandfather came over almost immediately, and talked about the carbine. He had served in WW-II and had carried a carbine, but only got back into shooting when his grandson got interested. His son had developed an interest on his own while in college in their shooting club, but they all had .22 rim fire rifles with them.

That elderly vet was like a young kid, he couldn't believe civilians could own those old war horses. He asked to handle it, and I volunteered a few loaded magazines for him to run down range. I don't know the last time I saw a man smile so much, I ended up donating 100 rounds so all of them could shoot it.

By the time they were packing up, all three wanted one. I gave them my number and told them I'd keep an eye out for a good deal for them. I made 3 friends I'll likely have for life, they went from outsiders paying the non-member rate to joining the club that day.

 

[T2K]

My opinions:

1. The group of guys talking or being loud. No problem, it's their actions that matter.

2. Firing more than one round per second. No problem from a safety perspective as long as all their rounds were controlled and hitting the berm. I realize some ranges have rules about this and if yours does, then so be it. But it wouldn't bother me.

3. The staggered firing "line". PROBLEM. This sounds like a range design issue. The firing line should be just that, a line. Preferably with a counter top, 2x4 or other physical obstacle to prevent crossing it.

4. Switching positions with a loaded weapon. I assume he put the safety on, and you said he kept it pointing up. As long as he did this in a controlled manner, I have no problem with this.

 

[kwelz]

I am used to being on a hot range. Meaning that we make our guns hot in the morning and they stay that way till we quit. Often people are forward of other shooters depending on the drill or situation. Hot guns will be behind the line and nobody thinks much of it.

That being said I don't know the mindset of these guys so it is hard to say. If they were just a group of schmucks with no skill, blasting off at dirt I would be worried. If they were hitting their targets, never swept anyone with their muzzles, and were conscious of their environment regardless of how they were joking around, then I don't think it was a big deal.

The 4 rules are important lessons to teach people. The nice thing about them is that you can break a couple of them and still be ok. Not saying you ever SHOULD, just that you can and not kill someone.

 

[killchain]

Personally, I am a curmudgeon about curmudgeons telling me I'm shooting too fast or not using proper stance or etc... etc...

I can't even begin to count the numerous times someone on a range has started to lecture me on "shooting fast is inaccurate" when I'm tearing the 10 out better than they are.

But, of course there is the fact that my living involves being proficient with firearms. I just nod and keep doing what I'm doing.

And I so love the "you need to put that rifle into your shoulder, and stand up straight! why is your head down like that? you're shooting too fast that's DANGEROUS" people. Those people don't shoot wearing body armor. They also don't engage targets quickly.

Now that that's out of the way...

So what if the kids want to spray their money at a target as fast as they can? It's their choice.

Walking back from the firing line with a loaded firearm? That's a no no.

 

[Nushif]

I'll just highlight some things that jumped out at me.

"There was a group of 3 guys who had some semi-auto rifles with probably 30 round mags. They were hotter than .223s but not .30-06. They have a heavy duty metal target at 100 yds. They are just PELTING this metal target. They're certainly firing faster than 1 round/second. They almost always had two guys shooting - certainly at greater than 1 round per second. They'd empty a mag, insert a full one, and keep going. After a while one of the guys goes to his car and brings out another ammo can filled with mags.

Now (finally) what happened:
1. They were yucking it up, talking quite loud, joking around, and just generally making a commotion. While I don't think that is anything to bring up with them, it made me uneasy because it just makes me wonder if they're applying all their faculties on the danger of the tools being used.
2. At one point one of the guys was shooting standing up at the FRONT of the flat platform. The stall to the left of him was empty. The stall to the left of that empty one had a shooter, who was at the BACK of the stall - sitting at the table. So that means there was a shooter ~5-10 ft to the side and ~10+' in front of a shooter. It makes me want to bring up to range mgmt the question whether we need to formally state what the firing line actually is in that situation. It made me uneasy that a fairly mild lateral pointing of the rear gun could hit the guy in front.
3. At one point one of the guys in question decided to change shooting stalls. (The range was hot.) He took 2-3 steps back (behind the firing line) with his gun pointed up. He walked down a couple of stalls and began firing. I watching him pretty closely. He didn't cycle the action. The mag was in the gun. He just started shooting. So I'm concluding he had a chambered round when he stepped back and walked down the firing line. On the one hand he always had the gun pointed in a safe direction. On the other hand, the thought of bringing a loaded gun behind the firing line threw me."

That's what popped out to me the most.

The range I visit has no rule on open bolts, empty weapons only or any other such thins when it comes to handling weapons.
However, it has a rather large sign stating the four rules. Thus far nobody has gotten hurt, killed, maimed or otherwise hurt.

To me it sounds mostly like they were ruining your quiet father and son time. they were cramping your style, if you will. there's nothing wrong with you being less than happy about that, at least on my end. 8)

However what I am reading here also is a healthy bias. One doesn't engage in rapid fire drills ... one doesn't have a sense of humor at the range, one doesn't "make a commotion" at a range.
But that's not always a given. As you yourself put very well, there's a lot of people enjoying the sport (and challenge!) of shooting differently. And slow fire tack driving practice with one round every three minutes and one sandwich later in a somber and festive mood is probably not what these guys were out for ... with their evil high capacity rifles.

As for walking behind the firing line with a hot weapon I don't know what your range rules say about that, to be honest, but .. I am trying to picture the angle the guy would have had to accidentally swing the barrel to flag the patron two lanes down from him.
In my mind this is close to an 80 degree angle. (At least from the ranges I've visited) This means that from your general feeling of uneasy anyone who would have to pivot 160 degrees to hit something is being unsafe? that's a rather large error, that in my opinion is err ... unavoidable short of shooting in locked concrete cubicles.

So, not to rag on you too much, it just seems to me that they ruined your quiet day at the range with your son and how you think the shooting sport ought to be conducted. In return you became critical of them. As you yourself said you were watching them rather closely. And I am sure you weren't watching for the good trigger discipline they may or may not have been exhibiting.

You know what I mean? You're right. If they actually did break some of the range rules, by all means ... bring that to managements attention. If not though, please don't be that guy that turns it into a "Hunters Only" range.

 

[Gouranga]

nothing you described would make me get mad. However, as other posted have said, the club needs to explicitly define a firing line. That day you had guys sightly staggered, the next time it is a little more staggered, over time that can get so folks are shooting all over the place.

Walking down the line with a live round in the chamber is unacceptable. Yeah those of us who hunt have walked with live round chambered. However, when I do so there are also not a mess of folks around me. Generally the nearest person is 100 yards away at least. At a range in close quarters, all he needed to do was trip over a table leg, or a stand and you have him possibly shooting a round or two down a staggered range line.

IMO, we need to be dot our I's and cross our T's at the range. We have a lot of folks in an enclosed space shooting. When we get lax, even for a bit, with the safety rules that's when our good time turns tragic.

Like I said I would not be going ballistic but I would probably talk with range management about those 2 items. The shooting fast thing, would not bug me, they were shooting downrange, they were hitting their target, they obviously know how to shoot their weapons.

 

[x_wrench]

i am all for everyone having a good safe time at the range. it just sounds to me like they were not being real safe. especially the 2 parts of firing line violations. the rules are there to make certain everyone stays safe. not to make life difficult, just sustainable. yes, you absoloutly should bring this up. i hope you would at least recocnise them again if they come back, so you can point them out to the range officer (or board member). there is nothing that can be done about what has already traspired, unless there is a tape of it. as far as shooting fast, that can be done safely, if the person is doing it right. but if they were just yanking triggers wildly, not focusing on where their rounds were hititng, that is a whole different story. i have been out shooting where someone makes me feel uncomfortable. when that happens, i pack up and get out of dodge. if you are not there, you can not be harmed. take your son to breakfast or lunch and come back. at the rate they were shooting, they could not have done that for very long.

 

[mcdonl]

I must be the odd man out who (Other than the firing line violation) saw nothing wrong with this. To each their own.

Further more, I think that a kid can be a kid (Play war, cops and robbers, video games, etc) and STILL learn gun safety. Maybe my kids are exceptionally bright, but they know that how they play with their video game or airsoft is NOT how they handle the real thing when at the range. They are older now 11 and 14, but they enjoyed plenty of hours of "man hunt" with airsoft guns in the woods behind the house.

 

[SuperNaut]

Pretty minor IMHO.

I truly feel sorry for guys that have to suffer the one-second rule and the inability to change the firing-line, how can you train effectively?

 

[Bubbles]

I am used to being on a hot range. Meaning that we make our guns hot in the morning and they stay that way till we quit. Often people are forward of other shooters depending on the drill or situation. Hot guns will be behind the line and nobody thinks much of it.

I've also trained on "hot" ranges. Handguns being transferred from lane to lane behind the line had to remain holstered, long guns were unloaded before being moved.

Since this was a range open to the public (abeit with membership), with rules prohibiting rapid/bump fire, and with no RO presence, I'm betting it's run as a "cold" range, meaning that loaded guns aren't permitted behind the shooting stations. Probably an unwritten rule, though.

The lack of a well-defined firing line would also bother me as well, though that's easily and cheaply fixed by the shooting range.

 

[kwelz]

I've also trained on "hot" ranges. Handguns being transferred from lane to lane behind the line had to remain holstered, long guns were unloaded before being moved.

Yeah Handguns usually do remain holstered however our Long guns usually stay hot but just slung.

I wasn't trying to imply that one way is better than the other. I was just giving some background so people would understand my perspective on it.

Of course we are also a more closed group so we keep the unknowns to a minimum.

 

[otisrush]

I made some assumptions about dimensions (I haven't actually measured things at the range) and I did some math and it appears a 37 degree move by the rear shooter's barrel would put the front shooter in the line of fire. I almost think my assumptions are wrong. That seems bad enough someone closer to the situation would have stopped it. If there were two blank stalls between them it would take a 51 degree sweep to get the front guy in the line of fire.

I'll reinforce: The relatively rapid firing was of minor concern - along the lines of being bummed because it's cloudy and not sunny or someone pulling up next to me at a red light playing really loud music. An annoyance but that's my issue not theirs. They were being accurate. They weren't shooting all over the place. To each their own and I'd label myself a curmudeon if that behavior alone caused me to take up issue with the range staff.

Truly from a glass-half-full perspective these comments and the events caused me to re-look at the rules and see if any need to be tightened up.

 

[Fremmer]

Those guys were having fun. We can't have that, can we?

We need more rules! And more people to yell at other people to enforce the rules!

More rules saying what you CANNOT do. More people to enforce what you CANNOT do. Of course, those rules will apply to you, too, but at least you won't feel "uneasy".

Take a step back, don't worry so much about other people, and let them have some fun.

 

[Mags]

I'm more of a mind your own business type of guy. If you were never in danger who cares. It's none of my business if the fools hurt themselves. (which I don't think these guys were unsafe in this situation)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I got the same impression about the OP as Nushif. More than anything of what came across is that the OP didn't like the cut of the other shooters' jib and he wanted to make it a point that he did not approve of such shooters before ever bringing up the issues that concerned him. It was almost like he could not believe that the had the audacity to be at his range with 30 round magaznes and pelting a steel target. That just isn't right. That isn't why you go to a gun range. He didn't like that they were having a good time and that they didn't show the right sort of behavior.

I got a kick out of the comment about them talking loud. Its a gun range. There is lots of loud noise and people wear hearing protection. Sometimes you have to not just talk loud, but talk very loud. I have never been to a quiet gun range, though I understand they have some in Europe that are suppressor only ranges.

The guy with the setup behind the line was wrong...creating a potentially unsafe situation. Otherwise, curmudgeon.

 

[22-rimfire]

The big issue I see is the one person shooting in front of what I interpret as the proper line of fire (aka staggered line of fire). I personally have no problem with someone switching lanes with a loaded firearm as long as they employ good muzzle control and the safety is on.

Honestly, I think you were just mostly uncomfortable with all the rapid shooting, the noise, and the fact that the three folks were joking around a bit (not horsing around). I would have just left or waited until they used up their ammo. At the stated rate of fire, I doubt you would have had a long wait.

 

[XD Fan]

I concur with many other posts that the big concern is the staggered firing line. The range needs to really clarify that issue. I also would think that common sense and a self-preservation instinct would require the young men described by the OP avoid being the lead person in a staggered fire situation.(I do recognize that this is a valid training situation in many circumstances, but this range day does not seem like one of those training circumstances.).

On another note--

Stickhauler said:

I had a chance to make an old soldier's day because of bringing one along a few months back. There was a group shooting beside me, grandfather, father and son. Grandfather came over almost immediately, and talked about the carbine. He had served in WW-II and had carried a carbine, but only got back into shooting when his grandson got interested. His son had developed an interest on his own while in college in their shooting club, but they all had .22 rim fire rifles with them.

That elderly vet was like a young kid, he couldn't believe civilians could own those old war horses. He asked to handle it, and I volunteered a few loaded magazines for him to run down range. I don't know the last time I saw a man smile so much, I ended up donating 100 rounds so all of them could shoot it.

By the time they were packing up, all three wanted one. I gave them my number and told them I'd keep an eye out for a good deal for them. I made 3 friends I'll likely have for life, they went from outsiders paying the non-member rate to joining the club that day.

Good on you Stickhauler. Great story, great example.

 

[tominct]

I've been on both sides of that, sort of. I've seen some pretty sketchy gun handling at a few ranges without ROs, if it looks dangerous to me I'll leave and come back.

OTOH: I used to be a member at a pretty Fuddy club where they had a 300 yard range. At the time, I shot regularly in CMP matches (at another club) with my M1-A.

Anyway, I was practicing at 200 yds, minding my own business, and 2 or 3 of the Fudd members arrive. One of them looks at my rifle and starts giving me grief for having "banana clips" in a rifle "that doesn't belong anywhere except Viet Nam."

I tried to explain, to no avail. The guy and one of his buddies got more irritated and aggressive about what they perceived to be a "dangerous man-killing gun."

So I left.

The club meeting was the following Tuesday, and as I was talking to one of my friends, I heard somebody commenting loudly that "this club oughta make a rule about banning machine guns like that idiot had here last week."

I was curious, so I turned and looked, and there was Mr. Loudmouth Fudd going at it with the president of the club. I went over and joined the "discussion", and made my case.
The president was in no way a fan of semi-auto anything, but we were pretty well acquainted, so it got blown off as inconsequential.

Still sticks in my craw, and it had to be 12 years ago.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[JohnBT]

"Take a step back, don't worry so much about other people, and let them have some fun."

The guy was many, many FEET in front of another shooter's muzzle. It doesn't matter what the angle was, he was out there. Didn't you read the post? Go back and read the posts that explain that a Firing Line that is staggered is NOT A LINE.

I would have called a cold range and gotten it straightened out.

What kind of fool would even be out there shooting with people firing behind him and off to the side. Thirty degrees, forty-five, it doesn't matter. It's stupid.

John

 

[benEzra]

The range rules do prohibit burst and bump shooting. I don't know if that is specific enough of a rule to enable what I saw be covered as a violation.

No, that clearly wasn't a violation of the rule as stated if they were hitting their target. Sounds like they were engaging in rapid aimed fire; they were obviously not bump-firing, and I doubt their guns were burst-capable.

To me, the only thing that would be a safety violation would be having someone forward of the firing line.

 

[22-rimfire]

I am surprised that nobody except tominct brought up the "black rifle" bias. I suspect it is there somewhat. If you don't like 30-round magazines, you're just going to have to get past that sort of bias whether you like it or not.

Is it a good environment for teaching a young shooter about shooting and safety... probably not. Go when the range is not busy.

I tried to explain, to no avail. The guy and one of his buddies got more irritated and aggressive about what they perceived to be a "dangerous man-killing gun."

So I left.

The club meeting was the following Tuesday, and as I was talking to one of my friends, I heard somebody commenting loudly that "this club oughta make a rule about banning machine guns like that idiot had here last week."

The president was in no way a fan of semi-auto anything, but we were pretty well acquainted, so it got blown off as inconsequential. (Good Point)

Still sticks in my craw, and it had to be 12 years ago.

I can sympathize. Things have changed in 12 years, I think. Most people are more tolerant of the semi-automatic military syle rifles that are available today. Frankly, if you shoot at public or private ranges, you have to be. Nobody likes to be called an "Old Fudd" and I consider it similar to "Redneck". The words have very negative connotations. Folks react to using these words especially if you are over 50.

Added: Honestly, at outdoor ranges, it is uncomfortable to me to have a few shooters shooting centerfire rifles quickly due to the noise if they are anywhere close to my spot. I can't relax and shoot. But I consider that is my problem not the other shooter's. May just have to join in during the next range visit.

 

[kwelz]

I think some of these range rules make things more dangerous than they would be otherwise.

I almost never go to a public range with a RO but had to to get help zeroing a rifle. My instructor made some time to go with me and we started working at the indoor rifle range.

5 Shots, put gun on safe, pull in target and adjust sights as needed. Rinse repeat.

Well the RO comes in and tells us we have to clear the rifle every time we pull in the target.

So instead of the gun being safe I have to screw around with the gun every time I want to adjust the sights and optic. Yeah it is the rules, and yeah I am sure it makes people feel better. But it increases the chance of an AD or ND.

 

[Nushif]

It is the rules, and yeah I am sure it makes people feel better.

Kwelz ... this just popped out at me ... an epiphany, if you will!

Isn't the soft and mushy notion that "it makes people feel better" the reason some stores prohibit firearms?
Isn't that very same notion the reason I don't know .... we do a lot of things that seriously infringe on a lot of our freedoms to do what we feel is alright within the realm of reason?
At which point then, does safety, or the perceived need thereof prevent someone from climbing on their low and flat roof without a harness to clean the gutters out? When someone writes it into law? When it's "good etiquette?"
When are things actually unsafe and at which point does someone just not feel comfortable with them? I certainly don't feel comfortable on high ladders or freestanding heights. That doesn't inherently make them unsafe, even though there's tons of people who die from falling each year.

I guess we as a community are not proof against the notion of overriding personal judgement in favor of foolproof behavior.
Happy New Year, by the by.

 

[Fremmer]

So that means there was a shooter ~5-10 ft to the side and ~10+' in front of a shooter. It makes me want to bring up to range mgmt the question whether we need to formally state what the firing line actually is in that situation. It made me uneasy that a fairly mild lateral pointing of the rear gun could hit the guy in front.

Wait until you see a guy in one stall point his pistol right at the wall (and the stall directly beside his stall) while he's loading a mag. Staying behind a line can be dangerous, too.

But hey, if you want to stop everybody from having fun....I mean, if you want to stop everything because of your concern for their safety, go ahead.