Value of Clay Teaching

[dmarbell]

After months of 1) acquired shotguns for the purpose of clay sports, 2) reloading some 7/8 oz 12 ga. loads, following formulae from this site, and 3) spending untold hours reading about clay sports and shotgunning on the internet (to the point of frothing at the mouth with anticipation), I finally shot a local five-stand today. Total hits out of 100 shots - maybe 20!!

25 shots were with a TB I bought and had to try, and was mismatched to the course, of course. The others were with a Wingmaster 28" IC Remchoke.

The range guy kindly inquired about my lack of shooting, which amounted to 3-4 rounds at the same course 2 years ago, and before that, about 15 years without a shot. He mentioned that he had been teaching shooting for 18 years, and could speed me on my way to better shooting.

So, obviously I could gain tremendously from some instruction. My question is this. Is it better to shoot some and get some experience, or go straight to instruction? Although I have shot thousands of rounds at various birds, squirrels, rabbits, and hand-thrown beer cans, with my lack of recent shooting, I would be considered a novice at clays. By the way, I'm 52.

Any advice or encouragement? My results 2 years ago were much better than today. Obviously, I could save a lot of money by selling all my shotguns and ammo and buying some really nice cards to learn bridge with.

Danny

 

[Dave McCracken]

In your shoes, d, I'd get instruction ASAP. We do not want to practice mistakes or bad form.

Do not spend money on new guns, exception being yours just not fitting nor easily capable of being so.

Spend your hard earned dinero on instruction and, you guessed it, ammo.

5 stand is a very hard place to start. A few rounds of skeet and trap will give you goals more attainable while still being loads of fun. 5 stand and SC for later, once you've gotten that exploding clay memory better grooved in.

I sure wish you were closer....

 

[RNB65]

Shoot real sporting clays and forget 5 stand shooting. 5 stand setups tend to be very long, very fast, and very hard with lot of tough angles. I've been clay shooting for 20 years and I HATE 5 stand becasue I can't hit many of them.

I'm all for getting instruction. 2 or 3 lessons to learn the basics of stance, mounting, and shotgunning techniques (swing through, pull away, and sustained lead) will be very helpful.

p.s. Get ready for a love/hate relationship.

 

[PJR]

I have spent a fair dollar on guns and ammo over the years but the best investment I made was two day long sessions with a professional instructor. I learned how to develop a plan, what was important and what wasn't, proper gun mount and movement and how to analyze what I was doing wrong.

It was the best money I've ever spent.

I don't care how good you are or aren't you cannot tell what you are doing wrong while you are doing it. I frequently shoot with an instructor who is a friend. If he's struggling with a presentation I can usually pick up what he's doing wrong. If he asks I'll tell him what I think and more often than not he'll make an adjustment and start smoking the target. He of course returns the favor for me. Our friendship also get me into instructing which is a new experience for me.

The only caution is that you most likely won't get results overnight. After I had my first session my scores dropped because I had so much in my head that I was trying to put into practice. But eventually the scores climbed and I'm now a much better and more consistent shooter than I was before.

 

[mete]

Not being a shotgunner I knew that I could use help so I took leasons from a fine old british instructor. I was worth every penny .I cuts your learning curve greatly ,prevents you from getting into bad habits and reduces the frustration level .Remember that a good instructor can see what you are doing wrong and tell you how to correct it.

 

[dmarbell]

5 Stand

Thanks for the encouragement. I knew that would be the answer, but just wanted to hear it. I taught myself to play golf 32 years ago, never had a lesson, and I really am no better today than I was when I started, except for experience.

I shot the 5 stand because I wanted to get a lot of shots in a short span, shooting a couple of guns that have been in my closet for a while. But this time of year here, the leaves are turning (rather late) and the shooter faces the afternoon sun and trees at the far end of the birds' ranges. These were not the easiest targets to pick up.

I was also shooting the 7/8 oz loads from my reloads, and the more I missed, the longer I waited on the shots. Some shots might have been in the 30-35 yards range, so I'm curious as to whether I might have done better shooting quicker?

Anyway, as opposed to my golf career, I'm out there one afternoon next week to take a lesson or two. I joined the range, by the way, so I have at least made that commitment. This range has SC and ZZ Birds, no trap or skeet. So next it's off to another nearby club with trap, skeet and SC. I have to justify buying that TB! (BTW, Dave McC, the TB seemed to shoot just fine. The NIB 1991 Wingmaster stovepiped several times on my reloads, but not on the one box of factory Federals I shot. I'd say it needs a good cleaning and lube job.)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=217903

Danny

 

[redneck2]

I taught myself to play golf 32 years ago, never had a lesson, and I really am no better today than I was when I started, except for experience.

I've only played golf a few times. I was much worse than awful. One of the guys in my foursome is a high school coach. A few pointers and I was doing 200+ straight down the center next few holes.

I watch guys at the sporting clays range. The mistakes they make are amazing, and I'm no pro. If you shoot with somebody that's really good and really experienced, they can help a lot. I suspect a well qualified insturctor would help a lot more.

Our local clays range has a wobble trap. I take new guys there so they can get into the habit of swinging thru. It's more consistent and simpler than normal clays.

If you have the money, I'd definitely get a well qualified guy to help. Makes it way more fun when you're breaking targets instead of just shooting holes in the sky.

 

[Dave McCracken]

"Done better shooting quicker"....

Maybe, if you aim when you take your time. Every shot has a rythym, expertise comes when one knows that rythym in advance.

 

[TX1911fan]

I can hit 17 out of 25 on a skeet range pretty consistently (not great, but good for me). I hit 7 out of 25 on 5 stand. The operator said that was pretty consistent with first timers. Once you get the hang of 5 stand, he said it gets better. I think I'll stick with skeet.

 

[BozemanMT]

Shoot real sporting clays and forget 5 stand shooting. 5 stand setups tend to be very long, very fast, and very hard with lot of tough angles. I've been clay shooting for 20 years and I HATE 5 stand because I can't hit many of them.

+1 on this.

and +1000 on getting instruction, you will come way up the curve quickly, worth every penny.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Dmar...

Not going to add anything earthshaking but do want to add enthusiastic emphasis to a couple things already mentioned.
Do not practice mistakes. Ten shots performed correctly are great. Ten shots performed wrong are a disaster.
Rhythm and timing are about 80% of it. Beginners often start trying to do everything fast instead of smooth and sometimes it takes a while for them to realize that "fast" comes from "smooth", not from "effort".
You may have already seen that in golf. If you watch pro golfers, especially someone like Ernie Els or Freddie Couples, you will see their swing is very, very fluid and looks very deceptively relaxed. Yet those swings produce some incredible distance.
Hope this makes sense!

Enjoy your shooting. If you want stress, go back to work.

 

[45R]

Ditto about the remarks on instruction, we can all improve.

 

[45auto]

Can't add much, but good instruction will greatly speed up hitting moving targets.

I would also start with skeet first. You have to be able to hit targets at 10-25yards before you go to 35+ yards. A little trap wouldn't hurt either.

 

[redneck2]

Starting with 5 stand is like taking up jogging by running the Boston Marathon. I'd still go back to the wobble trap if you have access to one. Maybe somebody can hand throw and make the angles simpler. Missing multiple shots in a row teaches you nothing but frustration.

IMO, you need to get to the point that mounting the gun and swinging thru is automatic. If you have to think about it, you're already lost.

Going back to the golfer thing...

most every pro on the tour has a coach. If Tiger can use a coach, I can sure use all the help I can get

I was shooting clays with an 870. Now, I've put thousands of rounds thru that 870 and killed way more game than it would take to fill a pickup. When I went from the 870 to a Weatherby O/U with adjustable butt plate, my clays scores went from 50-55's to 80's

Fit is critical in a shotgun. So is positive practice.

 

[dmarbell]

My first lesson

OK, OK, I need a lesson.

Actually, I took my first one-hour lesson today. I have to say that I am light-years ahead of where I would have been shooting on my own.

The first thing I learned was a routine. If you start the same way, continue the same way, and finish the same way, each time, you have an excellent chance of focusing on the clay and not on anything else.

The best thing I learned was to slow down. Unlike a quail or duck, the clay pigeon is not going to get away if you miss. It just falls to the ground. Maybe that's worse, because the thing mocks you as it breaks on the ground. But with instruction, you realize you have plenty of time to see the bird, mount the gun, point and follow the bird and pull the trigger.

Now I know the instruction field can't be the most difficult course around, but I only missed two birds out of 25 shots. One of those was the second of a double, and the clay broke apart in the air before I shot. So I really hit 23 of 24. More encouraging than the 20 or less of 100 from last week on the 5 stand.

I was a little lucky in that my instructor and I meshed. I like his teaching style.

Support your club or range and take a lesson or two!!

By the way, I shot my 12 gauge Wingmaster with 28" VR barrel, Remchoke with IC choke. What a great gun (LNIB) for $365 shipped to my FFL!! After I shoot for a while, I might decide I need another gun for clays games, but for now, Remington Rules!

Danny

 

[redneck2]

Now I know the instruction field can't be the most difficult course around, but I only missed two birds out of 25 shots. One of those was the second of a double, and the clay broke apart in the air before I shot. So I really hit 23 of 24. More encouraging than the 20 or less of 100 from last week on the 5 stand.

Maybe, but again, you learn nothing by shooting holes in the sky. If you have confidence that you're gonna break the bird, you can work on perfecting form.

One of the worst things about missing is, many times you have no idea why you missed so you wasted a shot, get frustrated, and learn nothing.

 

[BozemanMT]

Told you so.

Throw a couple hundred more shells downrange practicing, then take another lesson, because you'll be drifting into some bad habits and the instructor can show you more complex shots.

Excellent

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good start, Danny, enjoy that WM. As you get better, try some different clay disciplines for broadening your skills and avoiding the same ol same ol.

Off to the range. I'll decide what to shoot when I get there....

 

[dmarbell]

Gun for clays

I don't want to hijack my own thread, but a discussion about guns seems to follow here.

The instructor didn't denegrate my Wingmaster at all, really. However, he did say, to my surprise, that a semi-automatic might be a better long-term all around gun than a pump. (Surprising in that the shop there sells O/U guns, including Rizzini, Zoli, and SKB.) When I mentioned I had been eyeing some 1100 Competition models, he said they were good guns, but he felt the Beretta 391s were a better gun. He said the Berettas were just better balanced than the Remingtons. They also, by the way, sell Berettas in the shop!

Now I know from reading the threads, and from common sense, that the best gun is the one that you can break the most clays with. That's the gun that fits you best, balances in your hands best, and preforms best for you.

Having said that, what is the procedure for custom-fitting, say, an 1100 Competition, a Beretta 391, an O/U, or even a used Wingmaster? I wouldn't feel confident about chopping up the (upgraded?) wood on the 1100 or 391. Does the 1100 with adjustable comb allow enough adjustment for a custom fit? Length of pull doesn't seem to adjust with the adj comb. I wouldn't feel as bad buying a used 870 or 1100 (regular grade) and chopping the wood or chucking it altogether for some custom stock.

In golf, balance and weight are easily adjusted with lead tape. Does nobody add weight to one end of a gun or the other, if they feel it's not balanced? Which brings up a whole new thread, where should the balance point be on a shotgun? Also, could you take a light gun, like an 870, and add a pound or two of weight and reduce felt recoil?

Lastly, I shot just a couple or three "report doubles." Instructor had me shooting from gun low, to mount, back to gun low to visually pick up the second bird, and then remount for the second shot. I don't know if this works for simultaneous doubles, but for report doubles, this technique completely does away with any dispute about the effectiveness of pumps on follow-up shots. You should be able to learn to pump the gun while smoothly going from mount to gun low, then remount for the second shot with no disruption at all in your routine. Any disagreements there?

Danny

 

[Dave McCracken]

Danny....

Lots of us have added weight to one end or the other to change the balance. A dummy shell or two in the butt makes a shotgun feel lighter up front and maybe a touch faster.

Long barrels do the opposite. They are harder to get moving but the extra inertia helps keeping the swing going.

Superreverb's TC with a 36" barrel swings like a wrecking ball.

And, some of us have been know to add a few inches of that golfer's lead tape to the barrel to change the balance or just add a couple oz.

A comparison. Number 6 with a 30" LC barrel runs just a hair over 7 lbs. It works for most clay games and hunting. Heavy trap loads are not painful but noticeable. The stock on this one runs 15" with a Decellerator pad.

The TB runs closer to 8.5 lbs with it's heavier 30" barrel, massive MC stock and adjustable butt. Nothing I fire kicks so I can feel it. LOP 15.5" which fits me fine for pre mounted trap.

Fitting a shotgun to a shooter is simple, but not necessarily easy. One adjusts the LOP, drop, pitch, cast, etc, until the shotgun shoots where you're looking. Your instructor probably will help you with this a bit.

Do read thr Archives, there's a good bit of info there.

 

[Hoser]

I was averaging about 23-24 on the skeet and trap fields. Then I started 5-Stand. First time out I shot a 13-15. After maybe 20-30 rounds (a couple months) I paid for some pro instruction. Now after a couple years I average 22-23. Have yet to hit 25. The long 50 yard dropping crossers still kill me.

Money well spent.

SC is way fun but big bucks. I shoot 5 Stand for $2.75 for 25 birds, 10 minutes from the house. Much cheaper than $35 for 100 birds and a 90 minute drive.

Oh yeah, keep your head down and keep swinging.