Velocity loss?

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SuShI

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I was speaking with a friend and was just curious if anyone else had some input on the conversation. We were talking about velocity and energy loss from a 3" barrel for a .45, I say that it should NOT make a difference. He says that there should be a loss from a 3" barrell to a 4" to a 5".
Any input?
Thanks guys
 
I'm very certain a 5" barrel would have the highest velocity, then 4", then 3". Maybe with drastic barrel lengths for that round (like a 30" barrel), there might be a velocity loss for a .45 (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
 
Burning powders increase pressure exponentially with time (t) of confinement. So if let's say for example you chamber a live cartridge in a pistol with a 3" barrel, the remaining working pressure is going to vent after 3 inches. There would no longer be any steel wall confining and directing the gases. But if you run the same test with an identical cartridge through a 4" or 6" barrel, there is more time for gases to burn, build, and expand, thus, greater pressure and velocity at muzzle. It might be on the scale of 0.0001/second, but then that's all it takes. That's just how fast things are in the world of firearms.
 
Just a thought experiment here, but I would think that you would get a significant velocity increase for the first additional inch of barrel, and a second, but slightly lesser increase for the second additional inch, and so on untill, at some rather long barrel length, the friction in the barrel would start to overcime the pressure of the gas behind the bullet. I can't imagine this happening for normal loads with any barrel length you'd be likely to see.
It's possible this could happen with very light loads in a carbine, though.
Anybody got data for one of those carbines or carbine conversions?
 
IMO there HAS to be some loss. I would not say ''drastic'' ... more like ''modest''. There are various accepted ''formulae'' regarding losses with reductions in barrel length .. and other factors affecting things will be powder type ... fast or slow etc.

Subject to what others can offer, you may lose 25 fps per inch reduction. Thing is, it is rare with handguns that powder burn is complete ... so longer the barrel ... the more use is made from that burn. It is reckoned that with 9mm for example, a short carbine barrel (16") probably about optimizes the round. With .45acp, probably similar but perhaps an 18" would best optimize.

Biggest ''wastage'' of energy from powder tends to be in the magnum loads where a slow powder just cannot make a complete burn with a very short barrel length. From a defensive POV tho with say full size 1911 (5") vs a real compact or sub compact at 3" ..... with the .45acp round at shortish defence distances, IMO it will not prejudice effectiveness enough to matter a lot.
 
And another question just came up..... about "tissue disruption" (isn't work conversations grad?) I am saying from my memory most firearm fights take place in less then 16 ft. So having a 3" or 5" pistol in .45 ACP isn't going to make a bit of difference with a center mass hit. My friend is wondering if the 2" downgrade would matter at all in a firefight or home defense.
Any thoughts?
 
As I mentioned above - on this very aspect - the difference will IMO be marginal. Most ''incidents'' are close up and personal ... and as folks mostly agree, shot placement is paramount.

The reason for a shorter barrel is essentially so as to make a piece less bulky, smaller and thus more ''carriable'' ... the downside of shorter barrel is a trade-off (small) for such convenience. If in summer I have my SP-101 (2 1/4" barrel) I am probably disadvantaged compared with having say, my 4" M28 stoked with mag loads ... but in the end ... better some gun - than no gun.!!

It ain't worth fussin' about!
 
There is a significant loss of energy (and velocity) between a 45 ACP cartridge in a 3" verses a 4" barrel. Gun manufacturers make short barrel 45s strictly with concealment in mind, but you can't have both the ultimate concealment and highest possible fire performance together in one package. This is where one must make compromises in any which way.
 
what p95 said makes sense to me. i can't help you with 3" barrels but here are some data points i've recorded.

one of my handloads (200g Hornady XTP):
4.25" wilson combat 1911: 877 fps
16.25" HK USC carbine: 1074 fps

total of 197 fps difference
or 22% increase in velocity

another load (230g Win RN):
4.25" wilson combat 1911: 777 fps
16.25" HK USC carbine: 987 fps

total of 210 fps difference
or 27% increase in velocity

also, while i've never measured it directly, everyone talks about "pressure curves" not "pressure lines". giving some rule of thumb like "every inch of barrel adds x fps" may have some value in the field, but i rather doubt it's accurate.
 
So with the carbine and the handgun there was a 12" difference. and a 20% increase. So if you were to down grade an inch or two there would possibly be a 3-4% decrease? sound about right?
 
It's a geometric progression, not a strict proportion. The 25-50 fps/inch is a good rough rule of thumb for handguns. Realistically, it isn't worth worrying about at all.

If it functions reliably and you can hit with it, who cares about 25 fps?
 
I don't really care, and thats the thing i said from the get go. If you hit center mass with a .45 3 inch or 5 inch they are still bleeding. 3 center mass and they are going down...barring PCP addicts.
 
Well ... of course they're still bleeding! What special science is required to make someone bleed when I pick up a flat stone and chuck it at someone and break their skin, along with blunt trauma? But if I somehow make that stone fly 40 to 50 FPS faster than the previous velocity, not only would energy (ft lb/sq in) dramatically increase, but the rock would display very different characteristics upon target strike. Keep this in mind whenever looses tell you 40 or 50 FPS faster makes no difference. So what? They want the same or slower?? Derrr ...

Oh, and for the record, people on PCP are no threat to an armed man. Two shots minimum as close to center mass as possible from the forehead to lower chest is sufficient in stopping anyone. But I do love how "Hollywood Stories" or "National Enquirer" jack it up saying how someone on PCP survives a full magazine of .223 PLUS a couple direct hits from a shotgun only to smoke his last hit, kill three cops, then take himself out with his 25 ACP - single shot to the head.
 
Taurus,

The point I was trying to make is supported by your second point. In the grand scheme of things either the round is going to work or it won't.

I'm not saying slower is better but, given that it is just a handgun and there are so many other variables involved, in the end velocity is the least of your worries compared to having the gun with you when you need it and, as you point out, being able to hit with it when you have to.

Having the gun with you when you need it directly relates to a person's own sense of comfort and concealability, thus size and barrel length are key. Longer may be faster may be better, but there comes a point where each person chooses where that size/power trade-off occurs for them.

For example, I'm comfortable trading the 3/4" from a full size 1911 to get the perceived (by me) comfort and convenience of my Commander. Others feel even the Commander is just too big and choose to give up the 1-1/4" of barrel (and velocity) to get the concealability of the Officer's Model. Sure they are giving up a LOT of velocity but, if it works for them.....

As far as PCP goes, there's folks who are cold sober who soak up round after round of even well-aimed rifle and shotgun fire and still do damage. Like you (sort of) say, all we can do is put the rounds in and hope they work.
 
Ok, so from what you guys are saying, from a practical and pragmatic standpoint, there is little difference between 50fps, give or take, in personal defense scenarios. However, what about the fact that modern personal defense ammo utilizes hollow points of some sort, which need to be going a certain velocity to expand? I know people carrying .38 special snubbies were worried that their hp's wouldn't expand going out of a 2" barrel, so loads like the Speer 135gr +P were developed. Maybe velocity loss out of a higher pressure round like .40s&w or even 9mm may not be great enough to prevent the hollow points from opening up, but from a relatively low pressure low velocity cartridge like the .45acp, wouldn't you want to get it moving as fast as you could to ensure expansion? (That is, unless you only shoot fmj's, in which case velocity is less of a concern). Sure, 50-100fps loss from something like a .357mag going from a 4" barrel to a 2 1/2" barrel isn't really going to prevent expansion, but losing 50fps going from a 5" barrel to a 3" barrel on a round that was only going ~800fps to begin with seems more troublesome. What if that extra 50fps means the difference between expansion? Would you go with a lighter bullet then as not to compromise velocity as much, like say 185gr? I'm not trying to question your guys' opinions, just asking a couple of questions that come to mind.
 
As more and more manufacturers are producing handguns with shorter barrels the ammunition and bullet companies are constantly working on more efficient ammunition.

Depending upon the loading .45acp will gain/lose 25-50 fps per barrel inch up until about 14"-18".



And yes there is a point of diminishing returns. That is the point where the propellant has stopped burning AND the expanding gasses have ceased to expand. From that point on it momentum versus friction.

A case in point is the old Aguila Colibri ammo. It was discontinued and replaced by Super Colibri because the original standard rounds quite often didn't make it out of a 24" rifle barrel. (Something that NEVER happens with original RWS BB/CB caps)
I have had this happen with original Colibri several times in my 1950 Marlin 81DL. I have, however, never seen it happen in an 18" barrel.
 
Back when I was a kid in the Paleolithic, one of the coaches for my rifle club put a 26†45ACP bull barrel on a ‘95 Mauser. It was very unwieldy and eventually he trimmed it to 16 ½â€. As I recall, midrange loads gained about 150 to 175 fps with the 16†barrel but the additional 10" of the 26†actually took about half of the gain back. These loads were only doing 700 fps or so out of a 5†so I don’t know how much that would translate with modern defensive loads. Even though it was a single shot, with a 2¾ power scope, it was heck on the local jackrabbit population. I think that the extra speed made quite a difference on the bunnies.
I don’t know if this really contributes to this thread, but thanks for calling up a pleasant memory that had been lost.
 
Velocity Loss

Yes. There will be a velocity loss between the 3 inch and a 5-inch when the same lot of ammo is fired in both. Rule of thumb would put the amount of loss
at something between 60 and 70 fps, all else being equal. The problem with assigning a set figure to the calclation is that all the other factors that affect velocity are seldom equal. Bore and chamber dimensions...Bore condition...
(whether smooth or rough)...Bore diameter and the depth of the rifling...
All these things affect peak pressures...and muzzle velocity.

Due to these variables, I've seen Commander-length guns actually exceed
5-inch guns' velocties when the 4.25-inch barrels were new and the 5-inch barrels were well-worn. SO...depending on several factors, the loss will
come in on a wider spread at something like 40-75 fps.

Will it make a difference at 15 feet, assuming a center hit with both guns...on the same target? Nope. There again...people are as different as guns. One
guy may absorb two or three solid hits and keep coming, while another may take a non-vital hit on the wrist and drop like a sack of wet laundry.

Hope this helps...
 
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