Vermont Range Owner to be Held in State Prison Until his Range is Destroyed

[hps1]

https://www.ammoland.com/2023/07/ve...-range-is-destroyed/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)

I'm no lawyer, but this law would seem to put any range(s) within the state of Vermont at risk of, at the very least, having to defend themselves in court if they conduct certain competitive events. Since marksmanship skills used in various competitions could be
"used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder", it would seem that only hurdle would be to prove intent.

In May, Vermont’s Gov. Phil Scott — a Republican — signed the bill into law.

4071. PARAMILITARY TRAINING PROHIBITED

(a) A person shall not:

(1) teach, train, or demonstrate to any other person the use, application, or making of a firearm, explosive, or incendiary device capable of causing injury or death, or techniques capable of causing injury or death to persons, if the person knows or reasonably should know that the teaching, training, or demonstrating is intended to be used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder; or

(2) assemble with one or more other persons for the purpose of practicing or being taught, trained, or instructed in the use, application, or making of a firearm, explosive, or incendiary device capable of causing injury or death, or in techniques capable of causing injury or death to persons, if the person knows or reasonably should know that the practicing, teaching, training, or instruction is intended to be used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder.
emphasis added

Regards,
hps

 

[Jeff62]

As for myself I’m not going to be jumping to defend the gentleman. He straight up ignored the zoning/permitting process which appears to be the law where he lives. Further, he ignored a court order. It is possible he has been head butting with local government for as much as ten years.

 

[starnbar]

There has got to be a lot more here going on.Back in the 50s in fla there was a dairy farmer who owned over 600 acres right on Hwy 301 the county rezoned the area from AGRI/Farm to industrial it was in court for about 4 years but they forced him out. He ended up with about 10 cents on the dollar. County was really corrupt in those days and if you did not go along with them you usually had an accident.

 

[desmobob]

There's more to the story... he applied for, and received, a building permit for the range. After it was built, the local authorities rescinded the permit. (YouTuber "Liberty Gal" did a piece on the story and will follow up with one more in-depth once she gets the facts together.)

Reminds me of the authorities telling a manufacturer that "pistol braces are legal" and then changing the rules, declaring them illegal after he made and sold a large number of them...

 

[Speedo66]

Municipalities oversee building plans and issue building permits if safe. They also charge fees for doing this.

The deft. decides to build structures without a permit or paying the fees and ignores court orders and now faces the consequences.

They can color this as anti gun, but the bottom line is he’s decided he’s above the law. Good luck.

 

[hps1]

I don't know enough about the defendant/city conflict to form an opinion in the matter, but my main concern is the resulting loosely worded state law and the possible effect on legitimate ranges.

(2) assemble with one or more other persons for the purpose of practicing or being taught, trained, or instructed in the use, application, or making of a firearm, explosive, or incendiary device capable of causing injury or death, or in techniques capable of causing injury or death to persons, if the person knows or reasonably should know that the practicing, teaching, training, or instruction is intended to be used in or in furtherance of a civil disorder.
emphasis added

I shot NRA HP rifle competition for many years. The NM course was basically cloned after the military's rifle qual course, therefore could be used against clubs/ranges conducting this, or the many other shooting competitions.

This may be a stretch, but we have seen lots of "stretches" from the anti's of late.

Regards,
hps

 

[CapnMac]

YouTuber "Liberty Gal"

That would be "Liberty Doll":

 

[CapnMac]

The VT Statute is extremely questionable prima facie. It looks like something that would be easy to contest in court, if a person with standing can bring a case.
I'm not entirely sure that Mr Banyai has that standing, as his municipality has stood this up as a Zoning Violation, and not as a violation of 4071.

The question of legally arguing about municipalities abusing their rights to create and enforce Zoning are both thorny and nearly always prejudiced before being even being brought. Arguning Zoning versus an AHJ is neither speedy nor inexpensive.

That this is a already-built gun range being ordered to be buldozed makes it suitable for THR. That it's a Zoning squabble at this point, probably disqualifies it for Legal in THR.
Here is the one link I found for the Zoning Ordinances of Pawlet, VT: https://pawlet.vt.gov/wp-content/uploads/PawletZoningRegsRev2009May20.pdf
(I find it striking curious, in my experience as an architect, that their Ordinance is not posted on Municode so as to be publicly available.)

In reading through that Zoning Ordinance, I find nothing either permitting, nor restricting, a shooting range, and/or an educational shooting range.
But, all that is available is a pdf of the 2009 ordinance, and not the enacted City Code, which is vexing.

Which would, normally, tell me that the "rule of lenity" applies, that mens rea cannot be presumed per le, unless provable per se.

Issuing a writ of mittimus does seem more than passing extreme in response to a Contempt citation over a Zoning issue. I would expect at least on 8th Amendment motion would be in order. To go with the 4th Amendment issues about "takings." But, this is rural Vermont, right at the edge of the border with NYS (it's about 70 miles NNE of Albany).

 

[Spats McGee]

....That this is a already-built gun range being ordered to be buldozed makes it suitable for THR. That it's a Zoning squabble at this point, probably disqualifies it for Legal in THR....

I haven't had time to really dig into this one, but I'm going to let the thread run for a while. Opportunities for training are critical to the RKBA, and this isn't the first zoning fight we've seen.

 

[dh1633pm]

He had a permit. They revoked it after it was already issued.

 

[CapnMac]

He had a permit. They revoked it after it was already issued.

Sadly, this is only "alleged" at this point.
Both Zoning and Building Permits are "closed" by the issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy.

The possession of a COO is meant to be proof positive that one has the permission of one's municipality. This should have been the very first thing brought into this. Revoking a COO is a complicated procedure. One that wants documentation of Code Violation (creating a paper trail).

Non-conforming Use is addressed in the Zoning Code document, but only in that no new work or new use is permitted without review and Adjustment by the Zoning Board. But, since the actual City Code is not on Municode, it's hard to find the actual procedures required of both the City and its residents.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There has got to be a lot more here going on.Back in the 50s in fla there was a dairy farmer who owned over 600 acres right on Hwy 301 the county rezoned the area from AGRI/Farm to industrial it was in court for about 4 years but they forced him out. He ended up with about 10 cents on the dollar. County was really corrupt in those days and if you did not go along with them you usually had an accident.

 

[Mauser fan]

There are a lot of issues going on that we don't know about with this particular case. I'm hard pressed to believe that it was something as simple as a zoning issue that he couldn't comply with but it wouldn't surprise me either. Or it could've been something that one of his patrons or employee's had done or didn't do. We just don't know.

I am let with more questions than answers.

For example the sportsman's club that I am a member of and will attend the monthly meeting tonight. We are in a constant battle of encroachment from outlaying housing development from big resorts and the constant loss of support from the community because of stupid people doing stupid things such as shooting reactive targets or shooting outside the lanes causing the local residents to complain justifiably so. I'd be mad too if my house were hit by a stray round or a small brush fire was started by someone shooting reactive targets.
We do a very decent job of policing our own legitimate members but there is always 1 that messes the game up for everyone else. We take 2 steps forward and 3 steps back about every 6 months and are performing damage control because of the 1.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I haven't had time to really dig into this one, but I'm going to let the thread run for a while. Opportunities for training are critical to the RKBA, and this isn't the first zoning fight we've seen.

And as usual, there are potentially significant details we just don't have.

1. Of course it's possible that the town has exceeded its authority and that this reflects a strong anti-RKBA sentiment. It wouldn't be the first time.
   
   
2. On the other hand, it's also possible the the landowner is obstinately misunderstanding or ignoring the land-use laws. It wouldn't be the first time for that either.
   
   
3. And it also looks like there's a lot of acrimonious history as well.

I'll also let this run for a while in case we can get some more information. But unless we can find out what's really going on, there's not much worthwhile to talk about.

 

[old lady new shooter]

The latest development is that the landowner agreed to demolish his range because he also operates a farm on the property and was unable to arrange for suitable care for his livestock for whatever indeterminate period he would have been in jail. He had also filed a lawsuit at the end of May, not sure if this was previously reported.

G&G has the information, including the landowner's written statement:


And here is the link to the lawsuit:
https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Banyai-Federal-Complaint.pdf

 

[old lady new shooter]

The latest development is that the landowner agreed to demolish his range because he also operates a farm on the property and was unable to arrange for suitable care for his livestock for whatever indeterminate period he would have been in jail. He had also filed a lawsuit at the end of May, not sure if this was previously reported.

G&G has the information, including the landowner's written statement:


And here is the link to the lawsuit:
https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Banyai-Federal-Complaint.pdf

I just read through the lawsuit, a valuable read in that it lays out the entire sequence of events. And further revealed that on top of everything else, the town also ordered him to demolish his barn and chicken coop.

 

[alsaqr]

The state Supreme Court has upheld the decision of the lower court.

From the Manchester Journal:

"WEST PAWLET — The Vermont Supreme Court has upheld a lower court’s verdict against Daniel Banyai of West Pawlet in a decision made public Jan. 14.

The Supreme Court affirmed the decision issued by the Environmental Division of the Superior Court earlier this year, upholding the $46,600 in fines issued to Banyai for 466 days of noncompliance at $100 per day.

Banyai had argued the fines were not justified because he claimed he had a valid permit; the court had allowed some evidence to be admitted improperly during a merits hearing; and that the fines were excessive.

The justices denied all of these claims, saying the lower court did not abuse its discretion in assessing the fine and made appropriate decisions on the other matters.

Supreme Court: fines hold against Daniel Banyai, owner of illegal gun range in West Pawlet | Local-news | manchesterjournal.com

 

[wayneinFL]

Someone who isn't a lawyer once told me that it's a waste of time and money to enforce a contract the other party doesn't want to be in.

I know that this is a legal forum, but regardless of the legal issue, it's rarely in your best interest to stay in a situation where you're not wanted.

The running and gunning scares the heck out of people who do not understand it. Our local range kicked out our IPSC club. Everything we did to try to ease their safety concerns was a waste of time and money.

 

[CapnMac]

An Update on the situation, such as it is.

There is clearly a bunch of "small town" grudges and fuels in play here.

I find it fascinating, as a matter of professional practice, that a Judge imagine that they have the ability to vacate a city-issued Building Permit. (That does not generally follow "model code" for such matters.) That is utterly outside the scope of THR, however.

 

[nettlle]

I have had enough run-ins with zoning board officials to assure you that they don't have to be qualified to do anything. Maybe they are somebody's relative. They are certainly not the brightest of county/city officials that I have dealt with.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Another backdoor for anti's MHO.

 

[Frank Ettin]

We're not getting more details, so it looks like we're done.