Very big smooth-bore gun

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
89
I have a design for a breach loading smooth 1 1/4 in. bore gun that fires from steel 1 1/4 x 3 1/4 in. rimmed smokeless cartridges. Does that hit an ATF nerve? I know if it was a rifled barrel id be an AOW.
 
Things that are not rifled are still subject to the same law and are destructive devices without a sporting purpose/exemption if over .50 bore.

The exemption for shotgun calibers is if
'Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes'.

Your 1 1/4 inch firing smoothbore is not going to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

That means it is a destructive device unless you apply for and get an approved exemption from the ATF.



The exemption you may be thinking about is for muzzle loading black powder guns.
Breach loading smokeless guns over .50 bore which are not exempt shotgun cartridges are destructive devices without being pre-approved by the ATF.
 
Last edited:
good thing i asked. Maybe it could be exempt, it would be big, heavy and almost useless as anything but a novelty. do you know what i have to do to get it examined by the atf for sporting exemption approval?
 
hold on a sec, so all the goofy little 12ga. pipe guns people make and show off on youtube are actually unregistered destructive devices unless exempt?
 
No, because they take standard 12ga rounds, and are therefore shotguns.
(or something like that)
Well...they are assumed exempt because they fire a standard shotgun shell. HOWEVER, if for some reason they come unfavorably to the attention of the BATFE, any of them could certainly be reviewed and have that exemption recinded.

goofy little 12ga. pipe guns
They should be mighty careful to follow the rest of the NFA, though. That goofy little pipe gun had better be more than 26" in length if it is fired with a pistold grip or mounted on a fixed mount (tripod) or whatever, and if it has a shoulder stock the barrel had better be more than 18" long.
 
OP post sounds like description of a breech loading smoothbore cannon. I would definitely send a Query to the ATF Firearms Technology Branch and get an OK before attempting a build.


Those "pipe guns" others mention require seamless pipe rated to contain high pressure gas. There's a lot of pipe out there that does not meet the strength standards for shotgun barrel pressures. (My house has iron pipe that won't hold water pressure at times.)

ATF has clearly stated that a person can make for their own use a Title I (GCA) shotgun (18" or longer barrel or 26" or longer overall) if they otherwise are not prohibited from transfer or possession under the GCA. That does not exempt one from any local laws on "zip guns", however.

And I don't trust ATF to keep an "other firearm" exemption (PGO shotgun 26" overall even if barrel less than 18") as a Title I firearm in the future.

As a curio, a pipe gun might have some appeal. The "pipe gun" was a favored weapon of Filipino guerillas in WWII and has a certain historic interest. It also illustrates the futility of gun prohibition, along with reports of gun bazaars in Afghanistain-Pakistan and the wideopen gun barrios in Mexico.
 
OP post sounds like description of a breech loading smoothbore cannon.

Perhaps by some favored definitions. Its shoulder fired. raising the lever on the top of the action will allow acces to the extractor and breech and will also wind back the striker. if i get to make it ill post pics & vids.
 
Well, if shoulder fired you'll need to keep it above 26" in overall length, and give it a barrel at least 18" long, as measured from the breech face.

That way you'll avoid the short-barreled shotgun issue and only have to ask for the large bore destructive device exemption.

If you can convince them that this is a "sporting" arm, and has no military use, then you should be ok.

The other way you can go is to call this a signaling device/flare gun. Now, if you want to use real payloads in it that won't fly, but you're getting up into the range of 37mm launchers here, and the ATF has been pretty favorable toward those -- unless you load it as a weapon.
 
yes, barrel length will be about 4 ft and it should be about 5 1/2 ft total. I plan to just use 1 1/4 seamed electrical conduit for the barrel so that pretty much rules out firing anything except multiple pellets. definitely not an assault weapon of any kind. just big.
 
I plan to just use 1 1/4 seamed electrical conduit for the barrel...

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Don't do that. Please. We'd rather have you as a member than remember you as a cautionary tale.
 
+1000
Electrical conduit has slightly better pressure handling ability then a plastic soda straw.
Seamed or unseamed, it is not pressure rated for city water pressure, let alone making a gun barrel out of it.

What you are contemplating is not only not going to work.
But it would be very very dangerous.

I might suggest you do more study on metallurgy, firearms operating pressure, and firearms design before you get badly hurt.

rc
 
Electrical conduit has slightly better pressure handling ability then a plastic soda straw.
Seamed or unseamed, it is not pressure rated for city water pressure, let alone making a gun barrel out of it.

Agreed.

Even 1-1/4" sch 80 A53 pressure rated pipe is only rated at about 580psig, and that is substantially stronger (and heavier) than electrical conduit and yet still way too weak for a barrel.
 
I plan to just use 1 1/4 seamed electrical conduit for the barrel...
Actually, you're just asking about the wrong kind of Destructive Device. This one would be what we know as a "pipe bomb."
 
Since improvised firearms may be contrary to some local laws and require care in selection of material to avoid dangerous construction, I was tempted not to comment further on this thread BUT seamed pipe :what: ? Seamless pipe only for improvised firearm barrrels or even receivers. Plus double check all laws at every level before proceeding.


Trivia: In Harry Harrison's sci-fi Deathworld (1960) the high-tech "junkmen" deny the back-to-nature "grubbers" access to seamless pipe or tubing to deny them materials to make firearms.
 
Yeah you cannot just use any metal cylinder.

Your typical shotgun operates at over 11,000 PSI.
The larger the bore the more surface area that pressure operates against as well, and more mechanical energy it applies to both the breach and the projectile.


On top of that you don't build a gun to just barely handle the intended pressure, you must design it with some room for error.
Proof loads for many commercial guns can be anywhere from 15-30%+ over intended operating pressures. And some guns can take a proof load as high as 200+% over intended operating pressure.
The gun may not be able to handle that kinda load for long, metal fatigue and such, but it insures that the gun will be robust enough to deal with slight real life variations of pressure. From variables such as mist or moisture in the barrel reduce volume and creating steam, to powder variations or minor inconsistencies, primer inconsistencies, fouling in the form of metal taking up space in the barrel. Minor degradation over time, perhaps minor internal rust, dings and scratches on the gun, and overall slightly less than original strength over time.

There is so many variables than even the same exact load may have different maximum pressure peaks at different times. Different unknowns can combine to increase pressure beyond what is intended, but still be within a a safe margin of error with a robust gun.
With some margin for error these don't lead to the gun exploding under normal use, unless someone does something extra, like hot rodding cartridges, or firing it with a barrel full of dirt or partially submerged in the water.

With a homemade gun with less worked out load data, and no industry standard you may want to aim for something that can handle a proof load at least 50% above intended operating pressures.
So this means even if you intend to operate at say 12,000 PSI, you should have a gun that has safely fired at at least 150% of that at say 18,000 PSI.
That way at normal operating pressures it will work well over a long period of time, not work for awhile and then blow up in your face one day when you have done nothing differently than before.

Proof loads are remotely fired, like say with a rope while you are behind a concrete barrier, or large dirt berm.
 
Last edited:
Member rcmodel posted something the other day that I'll repost, even though I kind of hate to.

This page deals with flare launchers, both in the legal and safety aspects.

Their safety section features some photos posted as a warning about what can happen when the charge used is a little off -- and this was an item designed and engineered to be a functional launchers, not something you cobbled together from left over building materials:

CAUTION - GRAPHIC PHOTO'S
http://www.freewebs.com/grog/safety1.htm

Note, there is NO safe load you can put down electrical conduit or most other common tubular materials.
 
Additionally some states have laws against 'zip guns' which has no real definition. If it looks like a proper traditional firearm it should be fine. If however the barrel resembles a pipe, and your receiver a block of wood, well you may find they consider it a zip gun. This is true even if the pipe is rated for 100,000 PSI and is safer than your typical gun barrel.
It has nothing to do with safety, action type, or anything the politician writing it didn't understand, and in the end is really all about appearance.
So if you don't intend to make it actually look like a commercial firearm, make sure you are not located in one of the states that has zip gun laws.
On top of the I would imagine the ATF is less likely to give a sporting exemption for something that looks less professionally put together, which would mean you would have to stay under .50 bore or at least chamber it in an existing shotshell cartridge even in a state without zip gun laws.
 
Last edited:
Large bore (1" or greater) diameter novelty toy noisemaker?

Why not just build a spud gun? Many designs to choose from. Do your homework, and for the love of Pete, use PRESSURE RATED PIPE!!!

For a combustion style setup, you can "blank" load and just get a "whump". And if you actually want to fire something, load a potato and shoot at pumpkins or some such.

IMHO.
 
galv steel 1/8 wall EMT? Iv'e seen makeshift gun barrels made of this before, pressure should also be less due to the larger inner barrel dia. wow everyone really cares for my well being...? Alright, the idea in mind is that even though steel emc is not RATED for pressure, it is a 1/8 wall steel tube with some structural integrity lost by being seamed. because the emc is seamed i could not shoot anything though it except for projectiles that are actually smaller than the ID of the pipe with the seam or that are made from a material that is soft enough to accommodate the seam, being fired though it via a low pressure charge that will still yield somewhat high velocities because the breech end of the barrel does not have a forcing cone.
With that much about my design already given, three things i cannot do are:
1. blame good people in this society for not believing that anyone who posts on an online forum is smart enough not to accidentally kill themself.
2.waste anyore time trying to convince people who "know the numbers" that my ideas work.
3. tell why it is that I KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that this design will work.
 
We're stopping this right now. We've given the best advice we can, and answered the legal questions, too.

At the grave risk of being very non-pc, and even stepping beyond the decorum I usually try to maintain as a Staff member here...

This is a VERY BAD IDEA. DO NOT DO THIS.

And don't discuss it further here. We will not be host to planning for grossly unsafe actions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top