Very simple question for the experienced
- Thread starter rmkey
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Wildfire
Member
No Again.
Hey:
My Encores will rag a hole at 100 meters. all day every day.
I have 3 different bullets that will do this. The twist rate and loads will make or break accuracy. Accuracy is all I care about and am not a magnum nut.
Hey:
My Encores will rag a hole at 100 meters. all day every day.
I have 3 different bullets that will do this. The twist rate and loads will make or break accuracy. Accuracy is all I care about and am not a magnum nut.
berkbw
Member
actually - cartridge rifles May be more accurate. But if you are complaining about 2" @ 100 yds. - give ME a break!!. If you are pushing BP loads downrange lite that, you deserve kudos. Yes, in history, it seems that reputations have been better.
Depending on the weather, the BEST might have been 0,75". Forget it. If you really want to be better than you are now - expect to spend $4k+ for the rifle, and another $2k+ to learn how to max it out, [IF anyone is left who knows]
It will still cost that much for a new tech rifle, but the learning curve will be shorter,
Could you share with us what it is that you want to do? You can kill a target at 1 mile, if you want.
b-
Depending on the weather, the BEST might have been 0,75". Forget it. If you really want to be better than you are now - expect to spend $4k+ for the rifle, and another $2k+ to learn how to max it out, [IF anyone is left who knows]
It will still cost that much for a new tech rifle, but the learning curve will be shorter,
Could you share with us what it is that you want to do? You can kill a target at 1 mile, if you want.
b-
Wildfire
Member
Hey again:
Hey:
I have no where near $4000.00 into my Encore nor do you you in your gun and I am convinced that your s too (also) has the potential to shoot very tight groups.
I have not acheived this with magnum loads, but 300 grainers at 1550 to 1600 Fps can and do in my guns produce extremely tight groups and we have take some very nice deer over the past 25 years with these things. Not always an Encore but all of my Bp rifles shoot under an inch or I do not keep them. I will get back latter with more info for you if you want it.
Hey:
I have no where near $4000.00 into my Encore nor do you you in your gun and I am convinced that your s too (also) has the potential to shoot very tight groups.
I have not acheived this with magnum loads, but 300 grainers at 1550 to 1600 Fps can and do in my guns produce extremely tight groups and we have take some very nice deer over the past 25 years with these things. Not always an Encore but all of my Bp rifles shoot under an inch or I do not keep them. I will get back latter with more info for you if you want it.
berkbw
Member
Dang!! I had NO wish to "diss" you.
Sorry if you took it in that manner.
Sorry if you took it in that manner.
Wildfire
Member
No problem.
hey there:
No problem here. I am just telling the truth. And the question was about 2" groups. No reason to settle for less than the best. Depending on the shooters ability and the guns set up. With the right load combination most Bp muzzle loaders are very capable of very good accuracy.
I shoot and test guns a lot. Maybe this gives me some advantage maybe not. There is always a faster horse somewhere. But the fact is I have found most BP guns are very good shooters. And 2" groups can be improved.
As for a little ribbing ? I can take it. Some can not. Most on this forum seem to lean toward the traditional guns and methods of shooting and so they tolerate me and my In lines. I respect the traditionalist and his ways. I enjoy hearing their stories. When one ask of how to make an Inline shoot I usually jump in. After finding that he is set in a certian pattern that can not be broken I usually back out. I am an Accuracy nut with all guns, Muzzleloaders too.
hey there:
No problem here. I am just telling the truth. And the question was about 2" groups. No reason to settle for less than the best. Depending on the shooters ability and the guns set up. With the right load combination most Bp muzzle loaders are very capable of very good accuracy.
I shoot and test guns a lot. Maybe this gives me some advantage maybe not. There is always a faster horse somewhere. But the fact is I have found most BP guns are very good shooters. And 2" groups can be improved.
As for a little ribbing ? I can take it. Some can not. Most on this forum seem to lean toward the traditional guns and methods of shooting and so they tolerate me and my In lines. I respect the traditionalist and his ways. I enjoy hearing their stories. When one ask of how to make an Inline shoot I usually jump in. After finding that he is set in a certian pattern that can not be broken I usually back out. I am an Accuracy nut with all guns, Muzzleloaders too.
Back to the drawing board.
I am not worried about killing anything. My gun is a inline with a scope not a traditional hawken. My hawken has peep sights and will shoot one hole groups but not at 100 yards and the slow twist requires bullets no heavier than 250 grains at the most. I have no problem with my 308's at 500 yards. Yes, I know 2 inches is perfectly acceptable for hunting most anything. But I dont hunt- I just punch holes in paper and so I have read a lot of statements about blackpowder and potential accuracy and decided to take the challenge. EA Brown claims one hole accuracy like the previous post. I sure it can be done, after all the old battleships could hit a target 25 miles away with 16 inch blackpowder guns. Anyway, I like shooting bp but I dont know what else to try to improve. Maybe if I ever get the money I can get an Encore. I dont know why myself but the idea of a 45/70 class 400 grain lead bullet hitting the target is most facinating to me.
I am not worried about killing anything. My gun is a inline with a scope not a traditional hawken. My hawken has peep sights and will shoot one hole groups but not at 100 yards and the slow twist requires bullets no heavier than 250 grains at the most. I have no problem with my 308's at 500 yards. Yes, I know 2 inches is perfectly acceptable for hunting most anything. But I dont hunt- I just punch holes in paper and so I have read a lot of statements about blackpowder and potential accuracy and decided to take the challenge. EA Brown claims one hole accuracy like the previous post. I sure it can be done, after all the old battleships could hit a target 25 miles away with 16 inch blackpowder guns. Anyway, I like shooting bp but I dont know what else to try to improve. Maybe if I ever get the money I can get an Encore. I dont know why myself but the idea of a 45/70 class 400 grain lead bullet hitting the target is most facinating to me.
Mark whiz
Member
Thumbs up to Wildfire's recommendations - for best accuaracy stay away from "magnum" loads and light bullets. I too use 300 to 400gr sabots loaded at the 1500fps level and get exceptional accuracy out of my old Knight USAK "beginner" model.
Pancho
Member
rmkey, I don't intend to insult you by stating the obvious but the one thing that muzzleloading differs from smokeless is consistency. It is a lot harder to achieve with muzzleloaders. Paper shooters have a lot better chance of reaching the needed degree of consistency needed to shoot 1" groups. Hunters know that even pie plate groups at 100yds. will bring home the protein.
Shawnee
member
Am in agreement with Pancho - the consistancy provided by using cartridges rather than black powder is the significant advantage for target shooters.
Consistency
Yes, but the one variable that needs to be mentioned is can you shoot? If you have the ability to out shoot the weapon in question, 2" may be its practical limit.
But BP was and is as accurate as smokeless powder and the well made muzzle loaders will give a cartridge rifle a run for its money in accuracy, given equal shooters.
So your shooting ability may well be the limiting factor.
Yes, but the one variable that needs to be mentioned is can you shoot? If you have the ability to out shoot the weapon in question, 2" may be its practical limit.
But BP was and is as accurate as smokeless powder and the well made muzzle loaders will give a cartridge rifle a run for its money in accuracy, given equal shooters.
So your shooting ability may well be the limiting factor.
Mark whiz
Member
I concur with BigG about the "nut" behind the stock being a big factor in the grouping equation. But also with BP shooting, the specific load is probably a bigger factgor than with a cartridge rifle. Almost any factory load will shoot acceptably well in practically any rifle in that caliber; BP rifles however seem to have a sweet spot that must be found for outstanding accuracy. It took a number of range trips to discover the sweet spot on my Knight, but once found, I have to say it produces the best groups out to 100yds of all my firearms, including my "semi-match" M1A.
Wildfire
Member
Ok Here goes.
Hey there:
I assume by your post you can shoot. Good got that out of the way.
Here is my load. I have tested many, many, many, so no arguments here.
This works in my gun . Same twist.
80 grains of Pyrodex "P"> Remington Muzzleloader only 209 primer> 300 grain
SST/ML, 300 grain T/C shock Wave ( Blue tip or Yellow Tip Black sabot only)
Even the 250 and 300 Grain Red HOTs by Knight. These will all touch holes at 100 meters. My barrel must be swabed between shots. My sons rifle has a slightly larger bore and does not like cleaning between shots.
I can get under 1/2" groups ( center to center) with anywhere from 70 to 80 grains of that "P"..... That powder will not hurt your gun. BUT !!!! do not load Magnum loads with "P"... Much over 85 grains and accuracy goes away.
These loads clock around 1550 to 1600 in my Encore and produce extremely tight groups and kill critters very well. I hunted with the Red Hots this year as did my son. We took 8 deer total and recovered a few bullets . The expansion on the Red Hots is awesome. Most of the time 100% expansion and zero weight loss. Hard to beleive with a bullet with that large of a hollow point but they are deadly accurate. The SST/ML is the same bullet as the T/C shock waves and are made by Hornady for T/C. The Red Hots are Barnes MZs.( all copper bullet). I know you said you do not care about hunting, thats fine. The accuracy is what I am describing here. Others read this too so I tossed in the performance end. I have posted this before.
"P" works very well for target shooting because of it's pressure curve, it is more consistant then RS or the other equiv. I tested the clean burn powders and never found accuracy from my guns. Did not care for the smell either.
My testing was not some over the hood of my truck thing. I use a good bench with chrono, and chart every thing. Up to deer season here in Mich. This year I had tested over 700 rounds. Litterally burned out a breech plug.
All of this testing was done with a good 3x9 scope and I feel I could have done better with a higher power scope.
Hope this helps. There is a good reason for each component as listed.
Hey there:
I assume by your post you can shoot. Good got that out of the way.
Here is my load. I have tested many, many, many, so no arguments here.
This works in my gun . Same twist.
80 grains of Pyrodex "P"> Remington Muzzleloader only 209 primer> 300 grain
SST/ML, 300 grain T/C shock Wave ( Blue tip or Yellow Tip Black sabot only)
Even the 250 and 300 Grain Red HOTs by Knight. These will all touch holes at 100 meters. My barrel must be swabed between shots. My sons rifle has a slightly larger bore and does not like cleaning between shots.
I can get under 1/2" groups ( center to center) with anywhere from 70 to 80 grains of that "P"..... That powder will not hurt your gun. BUT !!!! do not load Magnum loads with "P"... Much over 85 grains and accuracy goes away.
These loads clock around 1550 to 1600 in my Encore and produce extremely tight groups and kill critters very well. I hunted with the Red Hots this year as did my son. We took 8 deer total and recovered a few bullets . The expansion on the Red Hots is awesome. Most of the time 100% expansion and zero weight loss. Hard to beleive with a bullet with that large of a hollow point but they are deadly accurate. The SST/ML is the same bullet as the T/C shock waves and are made by Hornady for T/C. The Red Hots are Barnes MZs.( all copper bullet). I know you said you do not care about hunting, thats fine. The accuracy is what I am describing here. Others read this too so I tossed in the performance end. I have posted this before.
"P" works very well for target shooting because of it's pressure curve, it is more consistant then RS or the other equiv. I tested the clean burn powders and never found accuracy from my guns. Did not care for the smell either.
My testing was not some over the hood of my truck thing. I use a good bench with chrono, and chart every thing. Up to deer season here in Mich. This year I had tested over 700 rounds. Litterally burned out a breech plug.
All of this testing was done with a good 3x9 scope and I feel I could have done better with a higher power scope.
Hope this helps. There is a good reason for each component as listed.
consistency
I do try to be consistent. I measure the same volume of powder each load. I press the load down to the powder and then "feel" the rod press projectile on the powder. I fire the gun then swab the bore 10-12 times with a bore butter patch on a 45 cal brush. I then repeat 10-12 times with a clean patch. I then reload and fire. I used 777 primers for 777 powder and I use Remington ML primers for pyrodex. I dont know how to be more consistent so I figure it must be combination of the exact powder charge, primer and projectile. I do wonder about the projectile a bit though because if you are using a 300 grain bullet with a sabot allowing for aerodynamics of the bullet the sabot is what is actually contacting the bore. I use MMP sabots. I know how to get copper and lead out of centerfires but I wonder if the sabots may leave a build up of plastic in the rifling of a muzzleloader? Recovered sabots are nicely engraved with the rifling of the barrel and appear to have opened and separated at about 20 feet out.
As for the nut behind the gun I am completely confident that I can shoot sub-moa with an occasional flyer which I already know before I look back at the target. Any rifle shooter should be able to "call" his shots. Most disturbing when you know you dead on and a totally unexpected flyer occurs. One fellow suggested Hornady SST/ML with Remington primers and 80 grains of pyrodex P. I will give that a try but I bet it is a magic load for his particular rifle, but I will try it anyway.
Target shooting is not about bringing home protein- it's all about making the smallest possible group on a piece of paper. Check the website www.eabco.com here Mr. Brown claims accuracy is the norm. Maybe the Encores are just more accurate rifles. They certianly are more expensive than any CVA.
I do try to be consistent. I measure the same volume of powder each load. I press the load down to the powder and then "feel" the rod press projectile on the powder. I fire the gun then swab the bore 10-12 times with a bore butter patch on a 45 cal brush. I then repeat 10-12 times with a clean patch. I then reload and fire. I used 777 primers for 777 powder and I use Remington ML primers for pyrodex. I dont know how to be more consistent so I figure it must be combination of the exact powder charge, primer and projectile. I do wonder about the projectile a bit though because if you are using a 300 grain bullet with a sabot allowing for aerodynamics of the bullet the sabot is what is actually contacting the bore. I use MMP sabots. I know how to get copper and lead out of centerfires but I wonder if the sabots may leave a build up of plastic in the rifling of a muzzleloader? Recovered sabots are nicely engraved with the rifling of the barrel and appear to have opened and separated at about 20 feet out.
As for the nut behind the gun I am completely confident that I can shoot sub-moa with an occasional flyer which I already know before I look back at the target. Any rifle shooter should be able to "call" his shots. Most disturbing when you know you dead on and a totally unexpected flyer occurs. One fellow suggested Hornady SST/ML with Remington primers and 80 grains of pyrodex P. I will give that a try but I bet it is a magic load for his particular rifle, but I will try it anyway.
Target shooting is not about bringing home protein- it's all about making the smallest possible group on a piece of paper. Check the website www.eabco.com here Mr. Brown claims accuracy is the norm. Maybe the Encores are just more accurate rifles. They certianly are more expensive than any CVA.
Mark whiz
Member
The 300gr Hornady SSTs ARE very accurate bullets. Another bullet I like for range work (when I'm not going for the 99th% accuracy) is the Hornady 300 XTP Mags. These are quite a bit cheaper to shoot than the SSTs and accuracy is 90 to 95% of what the SSTs can do. I use the XTPs for all my new load workups as a control standard to compare results to. And a big plus to using the XTPs is that you can buy the bullets in boxes of 50 and MMP sabots in packs of 50 for less than you can buy the pre-packed 20 round boxes sold by Hornady in the stores. Sweet!
To answer your other thought, Yes - sabot plastic can indeed build up in your bore. Brushing the bore good during cleaning gets most of it out, but I usually run a few patches or either Acetone or T/C's Advanced Sabot Shooter Solvent which is also designed to dissolve plastic in the bore.
Let me give you one more little tip that worked for me - rifle break-in.
If your rifle is new, it will need to have the rough edges taken out of the bore grooving before accuracy can improve to its best result. Unfortunately, shooting only sabots won't do it - since the plastic is WAY softer than the steel barrel. There are basically two ways to do what needs to be done. First, you can spend a day at the range shooting 40 to 50 patched rounds balls or conical (non-saboted) lead bullets or second you can get some bore paste like J-B's, Iosso, Flitz polish, etc and vigorously work at least 6 patches of the stuff in the bore with a patch jag. Speed and generated friction is the key to the paste doing the job.
I noticed a significant improvement in accuracy with my Knight after I spent a day of round ball shooting - I highly recommend it. BTW, I typically use the bore paste in my rifle once or twice a year to make sure it stays clean (it's also a good way to make sure all the sabot plastic residue is gone).
To answer your other thought, Yes - sabot plastic can indeed build up in your bore. Brushing the bore good during cleaning gets most of it out, but I usually run a few patches or either Acetone or T/C's Advanced Sabot Shooter Solvent which is also designed to dissolve plastic in the bore.
Let me give you one more little tip that worked for me - rifle break-in.
If your rifle is new, it will need to have the rough edges taken out of the bore grooving before accuracy can improve to its best result. Unfortunately, shooting only sabots won't do it - since the plastic is WAY softer than the steel barrel. There are basically two ways to do what needs to be done. First, you can spend a day at the range shooting 40 to 50 patched rounds balls or conical (non-saboted) lead bullets or second you can get some bore paste like J-B's, Iosso, Flitz polish, etc and vigorously work at least 6 patches of the stuff in the bore with a patch jag. Speed and generated friction is the key to the paste doing the job.
I noticed a significant improvement in accuracy with my Knight after I spent a day of round ball shooting - I highly recommend it. BTW, I typically use the bore paste in my rifle once or twice a year to make sure it stays clean (it's also a good way to make sure all the sabot plastic residue is gone).
Thanks
Particularly to "wildfire" and "Mark Whiz"
I think these suggestions may be very helpful. Gives me something else to work on and some hope for improvement. Actually, the improvement that I have had has resulted largely from posts on this forum. Thanks
Particularly to "wildfire" and "Mark Whiz"
I think these suggestions may be very helpful. Gives me something else to work on and some hope for improvement. Actually, the improvement that I have had has resulted largely from posts on this forum. Thanks
John4me05
Member
rmkey
DOnt give up on your CVA... That is all i own.. Try using pellets instead of powder... When you load powder you WONT get the same charge everytime... And if you reload you know how much difference in accuracy 1/10th of a grain of powder will make.. Switch over to a Powerbelt bullet... They are made for/by CVAs team of people...
I shoot a CVA Hunterbolt Mag now and have a CVA Staghorn Mag as well... Both will print 3/4" groups at 100yds with the Triple 7 pellets and 285gr HP Powerbelt bullets... I shoot only 100grns though.. Most muzzleloaders (even some Encores i have saw shooting at the range) WONT burn 150grns of powder in the barrel... I have saw fire trails over 25yds long comming out of some of the "MAGNUM" rifles...
I hunt/use the camo rifle pictured (Hunterbolt Mag) and the black one is the Staghorn Mag)
They will shoot group for group all day with my Uncles Encores... And for the price i can have 3 or 4 CVAs for what they pay for 1 Encore
DOnt give up on your CVA... That is all i own.. Try using pellets instead of powder... When you load powder you WONT get the same charge everytime... And if you reload you know how much difference in accuracy 1/10th of a grain of powder will make.. Switch over to a Powerbelt bullet... They are made for/by CVAs team of people...
I shoot a CVA Hunterbolt Mag now and have a CVA Staghorn Mag as well... Both will print 3/4" groups at 100yds with the Triple 7 pellets and 285gr HP Powerbelt bullets... I shoot only 100grns though.. Most muzzleloaders (even some Encores i have saw shooting at the range) WONT burn 150grns of powder in the barrel... I have saw fire trails over 25yds long comming out of some of the "MAGNUM" rifles...
I hunt/use the camo rifle pictured (Hunterbolt Mag) and the black one is the Staghorn Mag)
They will shoot group for group all day with my Uncles Encores... And for the price i can have 3 or 4 CVAs for what they pay for 1 Encore
Wildfire
Member
Right On.
BigG has said it well . I have found "MY" muzzleloaders will give cartridge guns a very bad day at the target range.
No reason for labling a muzzleloader as inaccuracte.
Loose powder is also the most accurate way , Period.
BigG has said it well . I have found "MY" muzzleloaders will give cartridge guns a very bad day at the target range.
No reason for labling a muzzleloader as inaccuracte.Loose powder is also the most accurate way , Period.
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