Veteran's 2nd Amendment Rights Under Attack

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ManBearPig

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http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1193

http://www.newswithviews.com/Pratt/larry81.htm

Veterans, if you want to keep your guns, stay the hell away from any and all mental health professionals. Is your problems worth going to see a mental health professional to talk to them about what you are feeling, only to have the professional turn around and strip you of your 2nd Amendment rights forever? Work it out for yourself and keep your rights. A mental health professional can't take your rights away if you don't see them; it's that simple. Just say NO to mental health professionals!!!
 
Work it out for yourself and keep your rights. A mental health professional can't take your rights away if you don't see them; it's that simple. Just say NO to mental health professionals!!!

Hmmm. I don't think that's the answer. Let's challenge or rethink the proposed law, not the care that our soldiers need.
 
Sounds like another reason for emotionally troubled vets to avoid seeking help when they need it. I am guessing that the hidden ramifications of this bill will make for more "unexpected violent outbursts" that could have been prevented.
 
The Veterans Disarmament Act -- which has already passed the House

This has been referred to commitee, it has not been passed by the house. HR2460 is called "Healthy Families Act".

I scanned the full text and there was nothing that jumped out regarding veterans. However, I wouldn't put anything past some politicians to hide something in a bill. How can you be against "healthy families".

It is section 102(b)(1)(C)(iv) in HR 2640

It only goes up to section 14.
 
"The Veterans Disarmament Act"

This has a distinctly bovine scat scent to it. Anybody else smell that?

What politician would propose, much less vote for something called "The Veterans Disarmament Act"?

These people ain't real honest, but they ain't morons.
 
This has been going around for a while.

It would single out only those wwho have been judged incompetent or confined.

This pretty much follows existing laws for everybody.

The rub is that they are wanting a report from the VA, and many, including me are against that.
 
I see somebody stumbled across Larry Pratt's column from

2007

"VETERANS DISARMAMENT ACT TO BAR VETS FROM OWNING GUNS
By Larry Pratt
September 22, 2007"
 
In light of what happened yesterday - a violent attack by an emotionally unstable soldier

This is hilarious for one sick reason, the mass killer was the psychiatrist not someone being treated. The very person responsible for determining the mental health of other people was the killer!
 
Where I live having been non-voluntarily committed to mental care facility makes you ineligible for concealed carry permits and firearm ownership. There is an appeal process I believe once you are no longer considered mentally disturbed. Personally I think this makes sense. If you are deemed a danger to yourself or others by trained medical professional(s) I don't think you should be allowed to own a gun, whether you be a veteran or not; until you receive adequate treatment to be "in your right mind" again. I think this particular attempt would be redundant though as I would think that most states already have laws regarding mentally unstable people and gun ownership.
 
Where I live having been non-voluntarily committed to mental care facility makes you ineligible for concealed carry permits and firearm ownership. There is an appeal process I believe once you are no longer considered mentally disturbed. Personally I think this makes sense. If you are deemed a danger to yourself or others by trained medical professional(s) I don't think you should be allowed to own a gun, whether you be a veteran or not; until you receive adequate treatment to be "in your right mind" again. I think this particular attempt would be redundant though as I would think that most states already have laws regarding mentally unstable people and gun ownership.


I do think that the government is trying to move towards a more arbitrary definition of who is and is not prohibited based on mental illness. Giving much greater discretion in creating prohibited persons. It is in fact the perfect loophole for moving it further from a 'right' and insuring it is a 'privilege' only those deemed worthy have. Now there is certainly mentally unhealthy people I do not want to have a firearm, but mental illness diagnosis is largely discretionary.

Virtually everyone in society has symptoms of mental illness, because mental illness describes anything which is abnormal as unhealthy, and nobody is actually 'normal'. So everyone has some abnormal elements to thier personality. (In fact being perfectly "normal" would be abnormal, as there is no normal.) Which means it is discretionary whether those symptoms are considered a mental illness or not. If the person is having problems, it can be considered mental illness requiring treatment. If they are not it can be considered normal.
If you want to give them happy pills or something to "help", they can be diagnosed simply to create a medical condition that needs treatment and thus allows prescriptions.
It is entirely discretionary. Someone stating "molon labe" or associated views could for example be described as having symptom of mental illness.


What is considered "abnormal" enough to be a serious enough symptom for diagnosis of various mental illness can also vary based on the beliefs of the individual performing the diagnosis. Which can very regionally based even on politics and views of the psychiatrist.
For example in New York City or San Francisco, someone heavily into firearms, hence weapons, may be abnormal. Combined with some other minor "abnormality" or "symptom" it may very well be enough for a psychiatrist to feel they are suffering from ____.
Now combine this with politics in a location unfavorable to firearm rights, knowing full well that those involuntarily committed can be denied firearm rights.
Anyone who shows up in Judge Brady's court, especially someone into firearms, can be ordered to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. By a psychiatrist who is known to be inclined to find illness who does such things routinely for the city. Thus anyone appearing before the court could arbitrarily be denied the RKBA at the court's discretion.
Don't want someone with a gun? Send them to psychiatrist Brady.

Further while your state can allow petitions, it is also a federal prohibition. So even if your state says you are no longer prohibited, under Federal law you still are.
If they can expand the number of discretionary diagnosis which prohibit the RKBA, and create federal level databases that track all these records ( previously considered private medical records) then who can retain the RKBA is entirely discretionary.

Certainly visiting or receiving any psychiatric help is already shaky ground, and may allow someone to prohibit you in the future.
For example if a soldier has a history of being treated. If one day they have a bad time, maybe get a divorce, lose thier job, lose a loved one etc resulting in emotional problems.
Thier mental health record can be combined with thier current problem and is much more likely to result in involuntary action being taken to 'protect' them and others. Making them a prohibited person for life. Without that mental health record, they are much more likely to just be viewed as someone going through a rough time, and unlikely to receive involuntary treatment.
So the more someone is in the "system" and has a "record" (mental health) the more likely thier rights will be at the discretion of others in the future.


Every single person in the population can be diagnosed with mental illness by someone who has received an education in psychiatry. Everyone displays the symptoms of multiple mental illnesses. It is just up to discretion whether those symptoms qualify as mental illness or not.
This is not to belittle psychiatrists. They provide a useful element in helping some in society, but I do not think people realize just how much discretion is involved. It is not like a medical physician saying someone has a real disease. It is instead someone saying that someone's views, or thoughts, or responses are abnormal enough to be a disease. But what is abnormal is highly discretionary.

As for the particular legislation. What was passed was primarily the tracking portion, it did not expand prohibiting diagnosis. Previously confidential medical records are now being reviewed and a massive database being constructed and maintained. A couple states have made such creation much easier, and hence the federal database is primarily composed of those states at this time. However once they computerize all medical records across the nation, as is happening, it will be much more widespread.
 
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Zoog's post paints a pretty clear picture of the slippery slope. Mental illness diagnoses are pretty subjective, as opposed to physical illnesses - ie, a tumor - which is demonstrably present.

Since the prohibition, according to the 4473, is based on involuntary commital or being adjudicated incompetent, integrating court records into NICS, as they weren't in Virginia before the VT incident, would serve to identify those prohibited persons.

Integrating confidential medical records into the NICS database would make it much easier for some politician to later expand the definition of prohibited persons, a la Lautenberg.

This issue is pretty close to home, affecting as it does quite a few of my friends of the past couple of decades. I personally believe that we should: a) not put up barriers to people seeking necessary treatment (as a society); and b) scrupulously protect against chipping away at our freedoms by accepting infringements against a minority of gun owners based on a misunderstanding of their condition (as the RKBA community).
 
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Every single person in the population can be diagnosed with mental illness by someone who has received an education in psychiatry.

Yes a lot of people could be diagnosed as slightly abnormal, but you took my comments out of context I think. What I said though was "If you are deemed a danger to yourself or others by trained medical professional(s)" That is not a diagnosis made lightly by any honest or reputable mental health professional. Note I use term professional, I don't mean just any quack, or wanna-be, but people that actually know their profession.

Personally I am against the fedeal law simply because I think it is redundant in most cases(I could be wrong about this though), and I think it should be handeled at state or county level rather than federal. But the principal of it I think is valid. I think anyone who is validly considered a danger to themselves or others should not be allowed to own or handle firearms until they are no longer at risk of flipping out and killing themselves or others.
 
Wow, That means a veteran who presently has a license/permit and has been in combat or has been diagnosed with some type of mental problem could possibly commit a weapons violation and use being mentally disturbed as a defense. All veterans have already been labled terrorist by the Home Land Security Secretary so I guess being called mentally disturbed would be the first step for the veteran in becoming a terrorist.

Prior to being retired/discharged from the military we were required to attend a military to civilian transition training course. It was quite an eye opener for the guys that had spent many years overseas and of course had spent time in combat. To assist myself in fitting into the civilian world I went back to the UTEP for two years. I learned that the average non veteran has no common sense, few people skills, no leadership skills, no imagination and was happy to allow others to take the lead. I learned very quickly why the veterans grew beards, wore camoflouge fatiques....etc.
 
Well this guy wasn't diagnosed with anything. He hadn't even seen combat.

What one must watch out for is the ridiculous and shameless exploitation of our troops deaths by the Bradies et al. It's already started; I read a story on ABC about how we must immediately pass the past legislation that would immediately ban guns for anyone on the terrorist watchlist, since this guy apparently was on the watchlist. Banning rights for people without due process - from a list where there is no real criteria to be placed on, a list without due process itself.

Anyway, it's ridiculous how much the media is glossing over the point. But of course they are, otherwise how could they push their anti-gun bias? Anyway, he was already ON a watchlist. They already KNEW he was talking to an imam with known extremist ties. Many in the Army knew of his extreme views and yet were prevented from doing so, probably due to political correctness issues. They were aware he bought a gun.

Like with 9/11, the information was already there, but no one did anything. It makes no sense to create additional laws to "fix" problems that don't address the actual PROBLEM. The tools are already there, the ability is already there! You HAD him.
 
Can someone link me to the news articles/programs/clips/columns etc. that are tying this to gun control?

I have yet to see absolutely anything about this being tied to new gun control efforts outside of the brady campaign and the usual people on here who think everything is a gun control scam. The only thing even remotely close to this suggestion is a couple articles used the old cop-killer term, you realize that nonsense is almost 20 years old.
 
While the references to Larry Pratt's column are clearly silly, the link to the Brady Bunch web site clearly displays the following:

“When I heard of the tragedy yesterday, we were in the midst of planning a response to the latest dangerous legislative proposal from the gun lobby in the United States Senate - language to automatically restore access to guns to veterans designated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs and the Justice Department as ‘mentally incapacitated’ or ‘mentally incompetent.’
It certainly does sound like those possessing a DD214 should be in contact with their CongressCritters to point out the irony of it all.

Is it just me or is it very poor taste for Helmke to use this tragedy, committed by an Army Psychologist, to argue that Army Psychologists should say who should be armed?
It's actually hilarious, and the fact that they are incapable of rendering accurate judgement upon even one of their own needs to be pointed out to anyone that will listen.
 
"we were in the midst of planning a response to the latest dangerous legislative proposal from the gun lobby in the United States Senate - language to automatically restore access to guns to veterans designated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs and the Justice Department as ‘mentally incapacitated’ or ‘mentally incompetent.’ "

So according the antis, the pending legislative proposal is to restore access to vets, NOT PUT THEM UNDER ATTACK like the thread title says.

John
 
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