Veterans check this out
- Thread starter MrHoppes
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scout26
Member
This has been cussed and discussed over and over again. Read the text of the bill rather then just the fund raising press release from the GOA. The GOA "misrepresents" what HR2640 can and will do.
<-----Veteran
<-----Veteran
Thumper
Member
<----Another Veteran
+1 on reading the text of the bill itself instead of GOA's weird spin.
"Veterans Disarmament Bill?" What a crock...
When are GOA members going to hold their organization accountable for their BS?
+1 on reading the text of the bill itself instead of GOA's weird spin.
"Veterans Disarmament Bill?" What a crock...
When are GOA members going to hold their organization accountable for their BS?
Another veteran here too, and tired of the BS spread about PTSD and gun rights. A diagnosis of PTSD, even if treated with a hospitalization and/or meds does not make someone a prohibited person under federal law.
Here is a link to our previous discussion of this nonsense.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304996&highlight=Veterans
Another earlier discussion about PTSD:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2741663&highlight=PTSD#post2741663
That's putting it mildly.
Here is a link to our previous discussion of this nonsense.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304996&highlight=Veterans
Another earlier discussion about PTSD:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2741663&highlight=PTSD#post2741663
Michael Thomson
Member
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- Apr 27, 2007
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Gun Bill Not Anti Veteran
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,151321_2,00.html
Gun Bill Not Anti-Veteran
Larry Scott | October 02, 2007
There is no such thing as the “Veterans Disarmament Act.” There is no pending legislation that would take firearms away from veterans. There is no pending legislation that would prevent a person with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), veteran or not, from purchasing a firearm or ammo.
But, there is a huge campaign of misinformation and scare tactics being forwarded by a small gun owners group who view themselves to be in competition with the National Rifle Association (NRA).
Let’s use some common sense instead of nonsense. If veterans were to lose the right to own firearms, you’d have a lot of unemployed cops. If those who have PTSD were to lose that right, there’d be even more unemployed cops and other first responders, as well. The arguments about a “Veterans Disarmament Act” are, quite simply, ridiculous and illogical.
The piece of legislation is question is H.R. 2640, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007. H.R. 2640 was carefully-crafted by the NRA and Members of Congress to protect the rights of gun owners, especially those who may have mental health issues such as PTSD.
Alert: Tell your public officials how you feel about this legislation.
The NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the database that contains the names of those not allowed to buy firearms and ammo. There are nine specific groups of persons who are included in the database.
Included is anyone "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution." "Any mental institution" would, obviously, include a VA hospital mental ward. And, the government's definition of a "mental defective" is: “A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. The term shall include a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case.”
The confusion over H.R. 2640 and veterans, especially veterans with PTSD, began in 2000 when the VA gave the names of between 83,000 and 89,000 veterans to the NICS database. The names were of veterans who had been committed to VA psychiatric wards or who had been adjudicated as a “mental defective.” This was required of all government agencies.
Some thought that any veteran with a mental health issue ended up on the NICS list. That is an absurd assumption. If a veteran tries to quit smoking and goes to VA smoking cessation classes, they are in a mental health program because nicotine is considered an addictive substance. The same applies for those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse. And, we know, these veterans did not end up in the NICS database.
Neither current law nor H.R. 2640 would put any person, including veterans, who have sought psychiatric treatment or voluntarily checked themselves into a psychiatric unit on the NICS list. This includes those with PTSD, those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse and those who have voluntarily sought help and been admitted for observation, sometimes termed a “voluntary commitment.”
So, why all the noise about H.R. 2640? Some feel the small gun owners group is just looking for members. Others feel they have some kind of beef with the NRA. Whatever the reason, the misinformation and scare tactics should be considered for exactly what they are.
The NRA, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings that killed over 30 students, realized that current firearms legislation had some real problems. People who should be in the NICS database, like the Virginia Tech shooter, were left out. And, just as important, the NRA knew that some people who shouldn’t be in the database had been included and there was no way for them to get their names of the NICS list. Also, some believe there is wiggle-room in the current regulations that can allow government agencies to “interpret” them incorrectly. The NRA set out to solve those problems, and they did.
The NRA fully supports H.R. 2640. According to the NRA: “Some pro-gun groups have claimed that H.R. 2640 would ‘prohibit’ thousands of people from owning guns. This is not true…In fact, H.R. 2640 would allow some people now unfairly prohibited from owning guns to have their rights restored, and to have their names removed from the instant check system.”
H.R. 2640 would require states to provide quarterly information to the NICS database. This information would have to include those who no longer fall into one of the nine categories of “no buy” persons. There would be penalties for states that do not comply. And, the protections, especially for those with mental health issues, assure that a “medical finding of disability” would not put someone in the NICS database. That would include veterans with a diagnosis of PTSD. Here are the protections as stated in H.R. 2640:
(1) IN GENERAL- No department or agency of the Federal Government may provide to the Attorney General any record of an adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person, or any commitment of a person to a mental institution if--
(A) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, has been set aside or expunged, or the person has otherwise been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring;
(B) the person has been found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that was the basis of the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, or has otherwise been found to be rehabilitated through any procedure available under law; or
(C) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without a finding that the person is a danger to himself or to others or that the person lacks the mental capacity to manage his own affairs.
Please note again that a person cannot be put on the NICS list solely for a "medical finding of disability,” and that would include PTSD.
Also, H.R. 2640 will provide a means for a person to take their name off the NICS list if they should not be on it, something they cannot do at this time. That provision reads:
(A) PROGRAM FOR RELIEF FROM DISABILITIES- Each department or agency of the United States that makes any adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person or imposes any commitment to a mental institution, as described in subsection (d)(4) and (g)(4) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code, shall establish a program that permits such a person to apply for relief from the disabilities imposed by such subsections. Relief and judicial review shall be available according to the standards prescribed in section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code.
The bottom line for veterans concerned about H.R. 2640 is to just use some common sense. Read the legislation. You may not agree with it. But, if you’re a veteran or you have been diagnosed with PTSD, don’t worry, they aren’t coming for your firearms. The NRA put it correctly when they said, “H.R. 2640 is NOT gun control legislation.” It IS legislation designed to end inequities in the current laws that have unfairly prevented many from purchasing firearms and ammo.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,151321_2,00.html
Gun Bill Not Anti-Veteran
Larry Scott | October 02, 2007
There is no such thing as the “Veterans Disarmament Act.” There is no pending legislation that would take firearms away from veterans. There is no pending legislation that would prevent a person with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), veteran or not, from purchasing a firearm or ammo.
But, there is a huge campaign of misinformation and scare tactics being forwarded by a small gun owners group who view themselves to be in competition with the National Rifle Association (NRA).
Let’s use some common sense instead of nonsense. If veterans were to lose the right to own firearms, you’d have a lot of unemployed cops. If those who have PTSD were to lose that right, there’d be even more unemployed cops and other first responders, as well. The arguments about a “Veterans Disarmament Act” are, quite simply, ridiculous and illogical.
The piece of legislation is question is H.R. 2640, the NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007. H.R. 2640 was carefully-crafted by the NRA and Members of Congress to protect the rights of gun owners, especially those who may have mental health issues such as PTSD.
Alert: Tell your public officials how you feel about this legislation.
The NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the database that contains the names of those not allowed to buy firearms and ammo. There are nine specific groups of persons who are included in the database.
Included is anyone "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution." "Any mental institution" would, obviously, include a VA hospital mental ward. And, the government's definition of a "mental defective" is: “A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs. The term shall include a finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case.”
The confusion over H.R. 2640 and veterans, especially veterans with PTSD, began in 2000 when the VA gave the names of between 83,000 and 89,000 veterans to the NICS database. The names were of veterans who had been committed to VA psychiatric wards or who had been adjudicated as a “mental defective.” This was required of all government agencies.
Some thought that any veteran with a mental health issue ended up on the NICS list. That is an absurd assumption. If a veteran tries to quit smoking and goes to VA smoking cessation classes, they are in a mental health program because nicotine is considered an addictive substance. The same applies for those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse. And, we know, these veterans did not end up in the NICS database.
Neither current law nor H.R. 2640 would put any person, including veterans, who have sought psychiatric treatment or voluntarily checked themselves into a psychiatric unit on the NICS list. This includes those with PTSD, those seeking treatment for alcohol or drug abuse and those who have voluntarily sought help and been admitted for observation, sometimes termed a “voluntary commitment.”
So, why all the noise about H.R. 2640? Some feel the small gun owners group is just looking for members. Others feel they have some kind of beef with the NRA. Whatever the reason, the misinformation and scare tactics should be considered for exactly what they are.
The NRA, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings that killed over 30 students, realized that current firearms legislation had some real problems. People who should be in the NICS database, like the Virginia Tech shooter, were left out. And, just as important, the NRA knew that some people who shouldn’t be in the database had been included and there was no way for them to get their names of the NICS list. Also, some believe there is wiggle-room in the current regulations that can allow government agencies to “interpret” them incorrectly. The NRA set out to solve those problems, and they did.
The NRA fully supports H.R. 2640. According to the NRA: “Some pro-gun groups have claimed that H.R. 2640 would ‘prohibit’ thousands of people from owning guns. This is not true…In fact, H.R. 2640 would allow some people now unfairly prohibited from owning guns to have their rights restored, and to have their names removed from the instant check system.”
H.R. 2640 would require states to provide quarterly information to the NICS database. This information would have to include those who no longer fall into one of the nine categories of “no buy” persons. There would be penalties for states that do not comply. And, the protections, especially for those with mental health issues, assure that a “medical finding of disability” would not put someone in the NICS database. That would include veterans with a diagnosis of PTSD. Here are the protections as stated in H.R. 2640:
(1) IN GENERAL- No department or agency of the Federal Government may provide to the Attorney General any record of an adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person, or any commitment of a person to a mental institution if--
(A) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, has been set aside or expunged, or the person has otherwise been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring;
(B) the person has been found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that was the basis of the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, or has otherwise been found to be rehabilitated through any procedure available under law; or
(C) the adjudication, determination, or commitment, respectively, is based solely on a medical finding of disability, without a finding that the person is a danger to himself or to others or that the person lacks the mental capacity to manage his own affairs.
Please note again that a person cannot be put on the NICS list solely for a "medical finding of disability,” and that would include PTSD.
Also, H.R. 2640 will provide a means for a person to take their name off the NICS list if they should not be on it, something they cannot do at this time. That provision reads:
(A) PROGRAM FOR RELIEF FROM DISABILITIES- Each department or agency of the United States that makes any adjudication or determination related to the mental health of a person or imposes any commitment to a mental institution, as described in subsection (d)(4) and (g)(4) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code, shall establish a program that permits such a person to apply for relief from the disabilities imposed by such subsections. Relief and judicial review shall be available according to the standards prescribed in section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code.
The bottom line for veterans concerned about H.R. 2640 is to just use some common sense. Read the legislation. You may not agree with it. But, if you’re a veteran or you have been diagnosed with PTSD, don’t worry, they aren’t coming for your firearms. The NRA put it correctly when they said, “H.R. 2640 is NOT gun control legislation.” It IS legislation designed to end inequities in the current laws that have unfairly prevented many from purchasing firearms and ammo.
MrHoppes
Member
ok I am done here
JohnBT
Member
"ok I am done here"
But did you learn anything during your short stay?
John
But did you learn anything during your short stay?
John
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
This one is the reason I'll not be renewing my GOA membership next time.
Maybe JPFO or even Pink Pistols could make better use of the money. GOA has jumped the shark with this one.
Maybe JPFO or even Pink Pistols could make better use of the money. GOA has jumped the shark with this one.
scout26
Member
I hope you meant in regards to this thread/topic, rather the the High Road in general.
Dear Congress.
I'm a US Marine (active); Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribon, Couple Expeditionary Medals, I've had a few "solo" shootings in my days of Iraq, not afraid to defend my life or family from harm state side... Pretty much a combat savvy leader of men and I own more Handguns than I have pockets in my cargo pants, along with AR15s.
I have been diagnosed with; PTSD, Survivor Syndrome, Brain Damage from concussions, sent to Stress Management Classes, Anger Management Classes, Group Discussion meetings of combat veterans and the list goes on, I have some messed up views on society and have considered moveing to Switzerland after my EAS or retirement from the Corps.
My Current Assignment is "Infantry Weapons Instructor" for a HighMar Unit, I routinely walk in and out of the Armory, with ECR carded M4's, Silencers, M203's M9's, PEQ-2, PEQ-15, Surefires, PVS-14's, AK47s all these weapons get transported in my personally owned vehicle, once every third week I sign for machine guns which go in a Gov't Van, but very well could go in my truck... I have a garage full of ammo (that I've bought from Wally Mart) and high capacity magazines... I have more access to weapons than 90% of the individuals in my branch of service... but yet I haven't gone on a killing spree in the US... Every one in my section "weapons section" has been awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Veterans, Combat Commedatroy fitness reports... but yet none of us, with the access to weapons and ammo, has gone on a killing spree. I guess it would be bad news if we ever did, we aren't exactly cooks or candle stick makers (not that I'm bashing those men), but I guess it would be a real mess if one of us were to declare a small war of our own.
So to prevent such men from doing so much wrong, why don't we just get rid off all the small arms in the United States, all the knives, brass knuckles, base ball bats, explosives, no more cars either they can become missles, no more airplanes they make great missles... there's just too many dangerous things in this world, maybe we should just detonate all the nuclear weapons and explode the earth to avoid such bad things from ever happening. I think life as we know it became too dangerous to stand after the invention of the wheel, and the first man was ran over by the wheel, we as human kind should have recognized the fact that fire was dangerous and banned that as soon as it was discovered.
To Date: Ted Kennedys Car has still killed more people than any of my personally owned firearms.
I'm a US Marine (active); Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribon, Couple Expeditionary Medals, I've had a few "solo" shootings in my days of Iraq, not afraid to defend my life or family from harm state side... Pretty much a combat savvy leader of men and I own more Handguns than I have pockets in my cargo pants, along with AR15s.
I have been diagnosed with; PTSD, Survivor Syndrome, Brain Damage from concussions, sent to Stress Management Classes, Anger Management Classes, Group Discussion meetings of combat veterans and the list goes on, I have some messed up views on society and have considered moveing to Switzerland after my EAS or retirement from the Corps.
My Current Assignment is "Infantry Weapons Instructor" for a HighMar Unit, I routinely walk in and out of the Armory, with ECR carded M4's, Silencers, M203's M9's, PEQ-2, PEQ-15, Surefires, PVS-14's, AK47s all these weapons get transported in my personally owned vehicle, once every third week I sign for machine guns which go in a Gov't Van, but very well could go in my truck... I have a garage full of ammo (that I've bought from Wally Mart) and high capacity magazines... I have more access to weapons than 90% of the individuals in my branch of service... but yet I haven't gone on a killing spree in the US... Every one in my section "weapons section" has been awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Veterans, Combat Commedatroy fitness reports... but yet none of us, with the access to weapons and ammo, has gone on a killing spree. I guess it would be bad news if we ever did, we aren't exactly cooks or candle stick makers (not that I'm bashing those men), but I guess it would be a real mess if one of us were to declare a small war of our own.
So to prevent such men from doing so much wrong, why don't we just get rid off all the small arms in the United States, all the knives, brass knuckles, base ball bats, explosives, no more cars either they can become missles, no more airplanes they make great missles... there's just too many dangerous things in this world, maybe we should just detonate all the nuclear weapons and explode the earth to avoid such bad things from ever happening. I think life as we know it became too dangerous to stand after the invention of the wheel, and the first man was ran over by the wheel, we as human kind should have recognized the fact that fire was dangerous and banned that as soon as it was discovered.
To Date: Ted Kennedys Car has still killed more people than any of my personally owned firearms.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
This has already been posted and debunked half a dozen times.
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