Victor Hanson - "Illegal Immigration is a Moral Issue"

[longeyes]

The Mexican people, I assume, have the same aspirations to freedom as anyone else. If we are bent on nation-building we know where to begin.

Should we assume that if Iraq were on our borders Bush's policy would be simply to absorb millions of Iraqis?

A situation where Mexico, both formally and informally, is able to meddle in our internal affairs, but we shy away from direct demands and influence on them, is a formula for political and social disaster. Bush needs to do a lot better than a "guest worker" program.

 

[ed2010]

In the news today...

Speaking of Mexico:

Official says challenge in international courts possible to block voter-passed Proposition 200

January 28, 2005
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A Mexican government official has threatened to use international courts to block an Arizona law meant to limit public benefits and voting rights to illegal residents of the U.S.

Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said in a radio interview Wednesday that an international strategy would be used if other attempts to reverse Proposition 200 fail, the Associated Press reported.

"We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," AP quotes Derbez as saying.

Mexican officials have repeatedly complained about Proposition 200, which went into effect Tuesday. The statewide measure denies most taxpayer benefits to illegal aliens and requires state workers to report applicants for such benefits who may not be eligible. It also requires anyone registering to vote in the state to show proof of citizenship and bring a government-issued ID to the polling place.

AP reported Derbez expressed regret that, according to polls, about 40 percent of Mexican-Americans in Arizona supported Prop. 200. The measure passed with 60 percent of the vote.

"It's sad, and it gives an idea of how we have to work to educate even our own Mexican-Americans about why it is important that these proposals are not accepted," Derbez said.

The Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund has challenged Prop. 200, saying it is "an illegal, impermissible, unconstitutional state attempt to regulate immigration policy, which is a fundamental function and responsibility of our federal government. Proposition 200 is mean-spirited and un-American."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42589

 

[R.H. Lee]

I cannot describe how much that pisses me off. If our elected officials had any guilianis, they'd tell Mexico (and any 'international tribunal') to kiss off.

 

[lostone1413]

FACT!! People form third world countries coming here can only make us a third world nation. Being in AZ I for one support Ranch Rescue 100% They are doing what are goverment should have the balls to do! I wonder all the do gooders who don't want to close our borders will fell when we have the next 911 and it comes out they just walked across the border. If that happens GWB and all the rest should be charged with treason!

 

[longeyes]

If Mexico attempts to strongarm our sovereignty by fatuous appeals to international bodies they are going to do nothing but force the American people to stiffen their backs on this whole issue. Not recommended: there is already a growing anger toward illegal aliens and the Mexican government in this country. One does have to marvel at the amazing gall of some of the Mexican oligarchy--they have convinced themselves, it would appear, that they have some responsive friends in high places.

So far the "pushing" has been all in one direction. That may not always be the case.

 

[flatrock]

The mexican government can appeal to whatever international courts they like. They will be laughed at or ignored if they think those courts have any jurisdiction over our state laws.

Sure there will be some liberals who might complain that we need to be more cooperative with the international community, however they may find out rather quickly that voters get really pissed off when some international body starts demanding that we do something that our voters have deemed unacceptable already.

I'm not worried about international courts. I'm worried about our own courts. I'm worried about activist judges finding some form of constitutional protection for free benefits to illegal aliens that only they can see in the constitution.

 

[wingman]

I grow very weary of some folks who see a racist behind every rock, we
need to discuss immigration, it is an important issue, it is numbers that
matter, not the color, race, gender, etc. It's about control of our future,
quality of life, freedom.

Mexico just happens to be one of the biggest source of problems, the government of Mexico looks to us the American taxpayer to fund the life
of there richest folks and it "appears" our government is willing to help.

I have lived near the Texas/Mexican border for years and problems continue
to grow worse in terms of crime, cost, texas is looming large as the next calif.

We need controlled, legal, limited, immigration.

 

[longeyes]

I'm not worried about international courts. I'm worried about our own courts. I'm worried about activist judges finding some form of constitutional protection for free benefits to illegal aliens that only they can see in the constitution.

I agree and foresee this as a major Constitutional battleground ahead. We need to draw some distinctions about granting benefits as opposed to according basic legal protections. The other Constitutional flashpoint has to do with children of illegal aliens getting automatic citizenship.

 

[moa]

Our government will do nothing of consequence concerning illegal Mexican aliens.

If we actually close our borders and start rounding up meaningful numbers of Mexican illegals and shipping them home, most likely there will be major civil unrest in Mexico, maybe another revolution. The nation south of our border may fall into serious chaos.

I think our government leaders see that, so nothing will be done except some window dressing on the issue.

Anybody agree with the above?

 

[lostone1413]

They have civil unrest in Mexico. Answer- 1 build a higher fence 2 have more armed guards in the towers. Can't see any benefit with us having anything to do with any third world nation. That is unless are leaders want to make America like them

 

[Selfdfenz]

moa

I do agree somewhat.

I think if the US demonstrates the will to control illegal immigration by closing the border and deporting people here illegally, the Mexican people that want to come and work here will do whatever we ask. If we want to put'em in a database, issue biometric cards, you name it they will do it. And they will pay for the programs.

I also think if the US shows a will to prosecute the ever loving heck out of employers that hire illegals American employers will also do whatever is asked.
They will also pay the tab if it means cheap labor.

We can never expect the right thing to happen on the border by doing nothing and asking the illegals and employers to do nothing.
Not rocket science.
S-

 

[longeyes]

There is "chaos" in Mexico now; that is why people are leaving.

Whatever we do we cannot introduce chaos here in order to prevent or minimize chaos down there.

There are a lot of actions that can be taken to deal with this problem. Right now I don't see us using ANY of the options available to us.

 

[wingman]

Bill cracks down on firms hiring illegals
Oklahoma state senator hopes to protect American workers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 26, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

An Oklahoma state senator has introduced a bill to penalize employers that hire illegal aliens.

Democrat state Sen. Tom Adelson introduced S.B. 510, the Oklahoma Fair Employment Act, which would allow citizens and legal U.S. residents to take action against law-breaking employers.


The Federation of American Immigration Reform, or FAIR, says the bill is a response to the federal government's refusal "to take action against employers who undercut opportunities and wages for American workers."

FAIR points to a report by investment firm Bear Stearns that shows between 4 and 6 million U.S. jobs have shifted from the legal work force to the underground since 1990, "as employers have systematically replaced American workers with lower wage illegal aliens."

"There is a mounting body of evidence that the vast majority of poor and middle class Americans are being directly and indirectly harmed by mass illegal immigration," commented Dan Stein, president of FAIR. "These American workers and taxpayers have had almost no legal recourse to defend themselves against employers who blatantly violate federal immigration laws while depriving millions of Americans a fair opportunity to find work and improve their wages. The Oklahoma Fair Employment Act represents one of the most important labor protection programs since the establishment of the minimum wage and the adoption of occupational safety and health standards.

Adelson's bill allows for:


The right of authorized U.S. workers to take action against employers who discharge them while continuing to employ illegal aliens;

Suspension of corporate charters of companies that knowingly employ illegal aliens;

Companies employing illegal aliens to be barred from state contracts or grants; and

Granting of safe-harbor status to employers who verify the eligibility status of workers using the online "Basic Pilot Program" established by Congress in 1996.
"These protections for American workers and honest employers should be adopted nationally. We congratulate Sen. Adelson for acting in the best tradition of Oklahoma and offering them 'sooner,'" Stein concluded.

 

[Basura Blanca]

Get some P.R. skills...

RileyMc says: Sheesh, Ralphpeters, get a grip We are no more affiliated with those groups than you are with Aztlan or LaMecha.

Really? Not according to our detractors. They want to link us (the "us" being the collective gun owners here) to "certain" groups in an attempt to demonize us even more. Why feed them that fuel for their fire? It's just plain dumb, IMO.
Don't believe me? Look for yourself. It's exactly (i.e. a literal link) to Stormfront.org on the list (right under the Second Amendment Foundation).

link

Talking about the "border issue" is one thing, but when the term "wetback" gets tossed around as an acceptable term, you're only proving that the VPCs claim of a "racist connection" does indeed exist in the gun community.

Our image matters to me. Why the hell does it not to so many others here?

 

[Basura Blanca]

It's not about the obvious.

Lostone1413 says: They have civil unrest in Mexico. Answer- 1 build a higher fence 2 have more armed guards in the towers. Can't see any benefit with us having anything to do with any third world nation. That is unless are leaders want to make America like them

The "build a bigger fence" solution.


Ok, so you don't see any benefit from the U.S. dealing with a third world nation. I won't argue about your opinion as that's senseless really. But the real challenge will be to project your sentiments on all the businesses that have moved to Mexico to escape paying taxes (further raping the third world of money for it's own infrastructure), complying with environmental laws, complying with labor laws and for the sake of cheap labor. Do the terms NAFTA and it's expanding waistline known as the FTAA mean anything to you?
You might not see the benefits, but big money U.S.-based business sure does and they're looking to expand their horizons even further.

Have you ever even seen the southern border?
Lately?

 

[spartacus2002]

A Mexican government official has threatened to use international courts to block an Arizona law meant to limit public benefits and voting rights to illegal residents of the U.S.

Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said in a radio interview Wednesday that an international strategy would be used if other attempts to reverse Proposition 200 fail, the Associated Press reported.

"We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," AP quotes Derbez as saying.

hmm... meddling in the internal political affairs of a neighbor country could be considered an act of war.

 

[Selfdfenz]

I must have missed something but:

Basura Blanca
"Talking about the "border issue" is one thing, but when the term "wetback" gets tossed around as an acceptable term, you're only proving that the VPCs claim of a "racist connection" does indeed exist in the gun community.

Our image matters to me. Why the hell does it not to so many others here?"

VPC lists the NRA, Ppaul Revere Assoc and GOA which I think are AOK with the Stormfront NAZI organization (which I can't begin to describe here for fear of being booted for the language I might use). That says every thing about VPC and nothing about the decent group of thsi site.

1. Since when does VPC do our collective thinking for us?
2. Can we be assured they will play fair and give us an A rating if we kiss their heines? Saw up our firearms
3. I'm not comfortable with negative terms like wetback but for someone with 50 posts who appointed you Ms. Manners?

It seems that for some reason some HRs have stated calling or accusing other HRs of being racist or White Supremicists or whatever too commonly in a few of the last threads. I'm not a mod but without proof, making such a statement ought to get the writer banned IMO. That just seems very un-THR like.


S-

 

[spartacus2002]

Hear Hear! Let's stop with the "racist" word. This thread started out as a thread against illegal immigration, not as a thread against Mexicans (and besides, last time I checked, "Mexican" was a nationality, not a race).

I propose a new Internet law similar to Godwin's Law: anyone who throws down the racism card in an illegal immigrant debate before there is actual racism expressed is automatically deemed to have lost the argument.

Do I have any takers?

 

[Art Eatman]

I explained this in one of the other "border" threads, but here it comes again, Maw:

"Wetback", during my growing-up years, was not a pejorative term. It was and is a descriptive term for those crossing the Rio Grande without papers. It's a casual identifier, separating them from citizens of Mexican background. The reality is that it's only a Texas word, since crossings west of Texas are not across the Rio Grande.

In the 1970s, teasing one of the ranch hands at our deer lease, I asked, "Tienes papeles?" "No, soy moja'o."--with a grin. Essentially, "Do you have a Green Card (papers)?" "No, I'm a wetback." He and I both saw it as a joke, and I really doubt that either of us would care about Political Correctness.

So, yeah, words get changed, but I guess folks will have to deal with the fact that I was here first...

, Art

 

[lostone1413]

I believe anyone in this country who sees nothing wrong in Illegals just walking in is in the wrong country. The benefit of having them here is zero. Any cop I know in AZ will tell you over 50% of the arrest they make are illegals. My wife works in the emergency room at the hospital here in AZ. 8 out of 10 that go to the emergency room can't speak english. The goverment picks up the tab. In CA the illegals have for the most part broke the state.

 

[longeyes]

When the Government fails to respond as it should in critical situations over which it has proper and just jurisdiction, the people will look to alternatives. That is what is beginning to happen. Is it ideal? No.

I heard Gilchrist of The Minuteman Project on a radio program the other day. His first layer of recruits are all ex-LEO and military. No white sheets or race-baiting.

Should we go after employers? Yes. Will we? Doubtful. This problem begins and ends in Washington, D.C., and we all know that. Bush is only carrying forward a policy that started quite a while ago and appears to be a deep aquifer under both parties.

 

[spartacus2002]

The minuteman project has a very large number of White supremacists. I wouldn't support this kind of action. 1 They are vigilantes. 2 I wouldn't want to give any legitamacy to these neo klansmen.

ROTFL... and you know this because you have interviewed them all? Or are you just buying what Morris Dees has to sell? I'd advise you that his livelihood depends on him finding Klansmen in every closet, under every bed, and in every backseat.

 

[longeyes]

The Minuteman Project, from what I have heard (Gilchrist, radio), is about surveillance and "exposure," not confrontation. It's designed to draw attention, bigtime, to what is going on at the border, to the full magnitude of the problem. Chis Simcox, the journalist (Tombstone, AZ) is involved. As I have said earlier, KFI in L.A. is going to embed one of their reporters on-site.

Someone is going to have to do something about this situation--unless we just want it to worsen.

 

[roo_ster]

Ralphpeters wrote:

Victor hanson makes a living out of illegal aliens. It is about all he writes about.

Thanks for confirming you haven't read much of Hanson's work.

moa wrote:

Our government will do nothing of consequence concerning illegal Mexican aliens.

If we actually close our borders and start rounding up meaningful numbers of Mexican illegals and shipping them home, most likely there will be major civil unrest in Mexico, maybe another revolution. The nation south of our border may fall into serious chaos.

I think our government leaders see that, so nothing will be done except some window dressing on the issue.

Anybody agree with the above?

I somewhat agree. I think it would be better to close off the border & force Mexico to do some serious resuffling.

The same families that were on top 200 years ago are still on top. The open border allows the steam to be let off and allows Mexico to keep going on in the same manner it always has.

I think we do Mexicans no favor by acting as the pressure-relief valve for a corrupt Mexican oligarchy.

 

[longeyes]

And when we finish with the corrupt Mexican oligarchy I suggest we move on to dealing with our own...