Virginia: "State, county gun laws out of sync"

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cuchulainn

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from the Fauquier Times Democrat

http://www.zwire.com/site/tab2.cfm?newsid=8208278&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=506066&rfi=6
State, county gun laws out of sync

By Bill McIntyre
06/03/2003

Fauquier officials are in a showdown over how to resolve conflicting state and county gun control laws that regulate possession of firearms in local parks.

County ordinance currently prohibits guns in parks.

That means guns carried openly in an exposed and clearly visible holster, for example, are illegal in county parks. The local law also bans possession of a concealed handgun, perhaps hidden from plain view in a purse, under a jacket or beneath pants.

State law is different, very different.

Virginia code permits gun possession in parks. Individuals with a special permit to carry a concealed handgun can do so. And law-abiding adults may openly carry firearms, too, although that right is rarely exercised.

Lee District Supervisor Sharon McCamy wants to amend the county ordinance to make it comply with state code regarding concealed handgun permit holders. She was motivated to initiate the change after talking with some of her constituents.

"We need to eliminate the contradiction," she said.

But Center District Supervisor Joe Winkelmann objected to making even a minor amendment to the county's ordinance banning guns in parks.

"We have a perfectly good, court-sanctioned ordinance and that's what I want to keep," he said.

Winkelmann is willing to make some other change to allow concealed handgun permit holders park admittance, especially since state law allows it.

But the Center District supervisor renounced any actual modification to the county ordinance which bans guns in parks, because it could lead to the elimination of an open-carry restriction on firearms in Fauquier's parks.

Why?

If county officials make any change to Fauquier's park gun ban ordinance, then they could forfeit the ability to impose any local existing or future regulations on firearms possession in their own parks.

That's because the county ordinance pre-dates a 1987 General Assembly amendment restricting the ability of local governments to regulate firearms.

The 15-year-old General Assembly measure, called pre-emption, was designed to bring uniformity to firearm regulations. To assure passage, legislators also agreed to let stand, or grandfather, existing firearms ordinances, like Fauquier's provision prohibiting guns in county parks.

But if any changes are made to the local gun ordinance after 1987, then the entire local provision would be erased.

Or would it?



Court test needed?

County Attorney Paul McCulla contended that amending the county ordinance to allow concealed handgun permit holders in parks would not automatically force the county to invalidate its gun ban provision, which would essentially allow open firearm carrying in area green spaces.

"We would take the position that it would not. Although that's not yet been decided by a court," he said.

Notwithstanding a court ruling should the ordinance modification take place, McCulla said that local deputies would enforce the park gun ban on non-permit holders with guns in places like Crockett or Lake Brittle parks.

"Under the proposed change the ordinance only exempts concealed weapons carried under a valid permit," he said.



A fork in the road

McCamy and Winkelmann didn't always disagree.

In November, they both set out to make the needed changes in the county's ordinance so it would comply with state law and allow concealed handgun permit holders to be armed in parks.

But as details surrounding the consequences of such a change came to light their paths have split.

McCamy steadfastly wants to change the ordinance.

"People simply want the ability to carry handguns concealed with a permit without feeling like a criminal if they go into a park," she said.

McCamy added that the real focus should be on the concealed-carry law and making sure local laws are congruent with state laws. As for the risk that the county could surrender its local authority to restrict guns in parks, she said let the courts help sort it out.

"Let it be tested," she urged.

Winkelmann is paving a different path. He wants to direct the sheriff and the staff of the Parks and Recreation Department that concealed handgun permit holders should not be arrested or prosecuted if they are in county parks, since doing so would not violate state law.

Winkelmann worried that if the local ordinance was changed, then the county could lose its ability to regulate guns in its own parks.

"You leave yourself open to a court decision or an attorney general's opinion. You're at risk. I don't want to put the county at risk," he said.

Philip Van Cleave is president of the Newington-based Virginia Citizen's Defense League, a grassroots pro-gun organization with 1,600 members. He called Winkelmann's "nudge-and-a-wink" remedy flawed.

"It isn't the right solution. You shouldn't be telling a sworn police officer not to enforce the law because that tells them to violate their oath," he said.

Sheriff Joe Higgs explained that he has to enforce whatever the state law and county ordinances are in the book.

Regarding concealed-carry, Higgs said, "The county attorney has already sent a memo to me saying that the county ordinances yield to state code. That takes me out of the middle," he said.

The matter is scheduled for debate at the Board of Supervisor's June 16 meeting.

Bill McIntyre may be reached at [email protected].

©Times Community Newspapers 2003
 
Best solution would be a repeal of the grandfather clause and make State Law supercede all local ordinances, as it should in matters concerning RKBA.

Local control over schools: great idea

local control over RKBA: leaves folks with no clear idea of whether they are breaking the law half the time, time for VA to change this.
 
Thanks for the clip.

The Gov. (a Democrat, no less) has been a pretty stand-up guy so far regarding RKBA. He did sign a law that overrode local ordinances on concealed carry in county parks, and hopefully, the trend will continue to homogenizae VA gun laws.

There are a lot of funny preemptions in the Old Dominion, e.g. here in Falls Church, concealed carry is legal only if you have a CWP!?! Go figure?
 
dev-null has it right. After July 1, ALL local (County, City or Regional) Authorities' laws regulating concealed carry will become null and void. (That's why you knew that, right d-n?:D )

The only gun regulation still permitted will be open-carry, and that's next on our agenda.:neener:

TC
TFL Survivor
 
I see others enjoyed reading that headline in their newest VCDL newsletter!
After July 1, local ordinances are non-enforceable.
That leaves open carry, the removal of the existing ordinances, reciprocity agreements and the restaurant ban.
Things are looking up in Ole Virginny!
 
The only gun regulation still permitted will be open-carry, and that's next on our agenda.

Uh uh. That's from the Attorney General opinion. HB1516, the law taking effect July 1st, overrides open carry ordinances for Virginia CHP holders or people with recognized permits. I should know, I'm getting a Washington CPL soon. :)
 
Um, not quite, Lonnie. Here's the summary (courtesy of VCDL):
HB1516 means that cities, counties and “authorities†cannot ban permit holders from carrying in their parks (either openly or concealed). That includes the Northern Virginia Park Authority, LOUDOUN, FAIRFAX, ARLINGTON, NORFOLK, WILLIAMSBURG, ROANOKE COUNTY, NEWPORT-NEWS, PORTSMOUTH, FAUQUIER and any others I might have missed.
However, we are not done with preemption. We need to get the same uniformity for those who open carry without a permit. Permits to purchase and waiting periods must go. And the grand fathered laws must be taken off the books to avoid confusion.

So the localities still have the authority to override Sate law and ban open carry.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
Man, I hate politics.
What I wonder is if the grunt-level beat cop will actually try to make arrests or just look the other way.
I can't imagine that the local politicos will want to take this to an actual court. They will try to hold out for as long as possible, though. I look forward to having a cookout in a Norfolk park.
 
I thought pre-emption takes effect 01 July? Or is that only on state parks?
The new pre-emption law takes effect July 1, and it overrides every local ordinance regarding CCW. However, there was an older pre-emption law passed in 1987 that prevented any new local laws but left the old "grandfathered" ones in place. Most of the grandfathered laws cover both open and concealed carry because at that time Virginia did not have shall-issue CCW. For instance, Alexandria city has a law banning something vague like "carrying a loaded gun on public streets." These laws are in conflict with the new pre-emption law.

That's why places like Fauquier (and soon Alexandria) are upset. The laws they have on the books are now unenforceable under the new state pre-emption law. However, they can't change the laws (to allow CCW but ban open carry) because that would be creating a new post-1987 local gun law. Their only choices are either to repeal the laws entirely, or to leave them on the books and take the political heat for going against the will of the General Assembly (and possibly have the laws thrown out anyway by a judge if they're taken to court). The main reason this new pre-emption law was passed was because the General Assembly was annoyed that localities were trying to get around the 1987 law.

VCDL has several park picnics scheduled for this summer. :D
 
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