Voting at 16 and younger?

Status
Not open for further replies.

jsalcedo

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2002
Messages
3,683
I would be a hippocrite if I didn't support everyone's voting rights but if
the current batch of pre 18 year olds were voting we would live in even more of a socialist dictatorship.




http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Politics/youngvoters030917.html

Americans may be getting used to the Terminator on the ballot. But can they handle his teenage fans in the voting booth?

Laura Finstad says yes. She works, pays taxes, and has been a political activist for years. And she's finally won the right to vote in the United States.

Her big accomplishment? Turning 18 last Saturday.

Finstad fumes about the law that made her wait so long and is campaigning for the voting rights of younger teenagers. The teen is gathering signatures for a petition to lower the voting age in suburban Takoma Park, Md.

"Young people have jobs, pay taxes, go to school to learn about government, and know about the issues," Finstad said. "We think 16 would be a fair age to be able to vote."

Supporters of lowering the voting age from 18, the national legal standard since the 26th Amendment was ratified 32 years ago, think the time for their issue has come. There's movement in several states and municipalities to give younger teens the right to vote.

In Baltimore, Md., 16- and 17-year olds voted in the mayoral primary on Sept. 9. An electoral quirk separated the primary from the general election by 14 months, and anyone who will be 18 during the general election was eligible to vote. Now, a prominent lawmaker wants to permanently extend the privilege to these younger teens.

The Cambridge, Mass., city council recently approved lowering the voting age to 17, and now the state legislature must approve the petition.

A Maine legislative panel in April approved, then reconsidered, extending voting rights to 17-year-olds. Similar legislation is being considered in Texas and California, and has been debated in Minnesota.

Youth voting rights advocates are also campaigning to lower the voting age in Florida, Hawaii, North Dakota, Anchorage, Alaska, and New York City.

Hot Topic Overseas, Too

The debate has caught momentum in Europe, as well, with Great Britain considering a proposal to lower the voting age from 18 to 16.

Globally, though, the most radical proposal to enfranchise youth belongs to Germany, where parliament will consider this fall giving children the vote from infancy, giving new meaning to the social policy "from cradle to grave."

Under the proposal, which would immediately increase the number of potential voters by 13.8 million, parents would vote on behalf of their children until they are 12, when the children could decide whether to allow their parents to vote for them.

A key rallying point for the German proposal is balancing out the political clout of the elderly, a growing demographic there, and boosting the political prowess of families. But U.S. advocates for youth voting rights say they're less interested in countering the power of the elderly than empowering people of all ages.

"The right to vote is essential, no matter who you are," said Alex Koroknay-Palicz, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based National Youth Rights Association.

Germany's proposal might be extreme, but supporters of youth voting rights here say it's a step in the right direction.

"As people begin to respect young people as individuals, parents will give children the right to cast their own ballot," Koroknay-Palicz said. "If it happens in Germany, it will change the law for the better. Then it will be a matter of changing the mindset and changing the culture."

Not Ready for Democracy?

Typically, youth voting rights supporters in the United States advocate lowering the voting age by a couple of years. They argue that teens often work, and should not be subject to taxation without representation, an American battle cry dating back to Boston Tea Party days.

Also, if teens went to the voting booth at younger ages, they would grow accustomed to casting ballots and more likely become habitual adult voters, advocates argue. Teens' political involvement would also boost the civic interest, and perhaps voter turnout, of their parents, say supporters of youth voting rights.

Critics of a younger voting age, however, say teens are not ready for democracy, and their participation as voters would not improve the electoral process.

"You're dealing with people who don't have any knowledge of or any stake in our democracy," said Curtis Gans, executive director of the Washington-based Committee for the Study of the American Electorate. "If they're lucky, they will have had one civics course before 16, and many won't have that. They're not parents, not homeowners, not raising children, and they're not in any responsible jobs."

Gans argues that younger voters are actually less likely than older citizens to make it to the ballot box on Election Day, so extending the vote to teens younger than 18 would damage already poor voter turnout.

Influence, With or Without the Vote

In Baltimore's mayoral primary last Tuesday, teens did not seem to be much of a factor in voter turnout. Approximately 2,400 16- and 17-year-olds registered to vote. Voter turnout was about 35 percent, matching the turnout for the most recent primary four years ago, the city elections office said.

Still, with 40 million young people between the ages of 12 and 19, teenagers should not be underestimated as a political force, says Sara Jane Boyers, author of Teen Power Politics.

"They're thinking people. They're working, contributing and buying — they're a huge economic force," Boyers said.

Even when young people can't wield voting power, Boyers said, they can influence their parents' votes or use other political tools such as protests. "They want people to pay attention to them," she said.

With young, college-aged voters expected to be a swing vote in the 2004 presidential election, lowering the voting age could get more attention in the coming months. "I think it's going to continue to pick up steam," Koroknay-Palicz said.

"As people realize that young people have power in politics, they're going to key into their interests and desires. Lowering the voting age will come up as part of that."
 
the United States of MTV

Looks bad for Hillary. Too long in the tooth, y'know.

Looks good for potential candidates Nelly, Eminem, Britney,
and Cristina Aguilera.

I think they made a "dystopia" movie about this years ago called Wild
in the Streets.

When the Founding Fathers walked the earth there was no such thing
as a "teenager." People in that age bracket worked the fields, went
to law school, and raised families. Teenagers are now an artificial
leisure class created by money-hungry corporations and parents who
have replaced God with their own kids.
 
Germany, where parliament will consider this fall giving children the vote from infancy . . . parents would vote on behalf of their children until they are 12 . . .
So you have more kids, you get more votes? I can see all kinds of reasons for this . . . vote for more state-paid school funding, vote for more state-paid day care, vote for more state-paid welfare payments, vote for more child tax credits, vote to shift more of the burden to people with fewer kids . . . it's clear that they want to give extra weight to the votes of some specific demographic groups.

Maybe they anticipate anti-gun votes "for the children, by the children?"

No, if we're going to do anything, we should weight each person's vote by the amount of income tax they actually pay. So your voice in how government is run is in proportion to how much of the bill you pay. (Why the :cuss: should someone who pays no tax and contributes nothing to society have a say in how MY taxes are spent?)

Or maybe reintroduce literacy tests? Of course, then many graduates of public high schools couldn't vote, to say nothing of liberal arts majors in college . . . Hmmmm . . . :evil:
 
Probably the most fundamental argument is that each voter should have reached the age of emancepation, i.e. 18. If they can't enter into legal contracts or have to have a responsible adult represent them in most things, why should they be able to vote?

A minor, despite the potential to be working and paying taxes, does not have the full rights of an adult. You would allways have questions about who the 16 year old is voting for, who they wanted, or who their parents ordered them to. Besides, the old saw "taxation without representation" etc. means just that, representation. Representation dosen't necessarily mean voting. No one would argue that their local aldermen, councilmen, state senators and reps, or their senators or reps don't also represent a portion of thier constituency just because they haven't reached 18 yet.

The furthest I could see this being pushed is perhaps extending the franchise to the rare individual who was legally emancipated before 18 by a court, and are living a provably independant existance, utility bills, lease, mortgage etc. and those 17 year-olds currently enlisting in the military. (Does the military still allow 17 y.o. enlistees if they have a H.S. diploma?)

Even if you wanted to apply misguided concepts of "fairness" and egalitarianisim to argue that those younger than 18 should vote, it would be "unfair" to all those who came before and had to wait until they were 18.

I don't see this going anywhere.
 
Teenagers are now an artificial leisure class created by money-hungry corporations and parents who have replaced God with their own kids.
This is about the best thing I have ever heard lately.

Most kids hardly work, hardly pay taxes and hardly are politically active, unless its the local teachers getting them to pimp for more money for their already bloated school budgets.
 
Ok, I would have had a dog in this fight about 4 years ago, but now I dont. I turned 20 in July. I have not seen a bigger bunch of mindless drones who believe anything that the boob tube and their fav celebs said than in high school. At least the sheeple on campus can explain with "reasoning" why they feel how they do, instead of repeating mindless drivel from the TV. I want no part of having such a large group of blithering idiots voting someone whom I find absolutely dispicable into office. I dont care if I do like the guy/gal who is up for election, even if it is Ghandi/Jesus/Buddah/My puppy it doesnt friggin matter.

It was stated above. If they arent recognized as adults, then they shouldnt have the privleges as adults. Unfortunately, one could make the same argument about the "punishment as adult" as well.
 
16 is just old enough to pay kiddie taxes and stupid enough to get into plenty of trouble. Should be a voting test. Now, before you get fuming mad, it's easy.

Show them a globe and ask them to point out the United States of America. Too bad if they miss Hawaii or Alaska. Betcha that'll disqualify a lot of them. :)
 
Hey chaim, bite me man! :neener: i couldn't wait till 16, now i'm holding out for 21 when i get my full fledged citizenship.

Young people have jobs, pay taxes, go to school to learn about government, and know about the issues," Finstad said. "We think 16 would be a fair age to be able to vote."

Hell no, kids my age are retarded. period. 18 is almost too young, i's sooner say give them alcohol privleges at 18 before voting rights...
 
so..... you're too immature to own a pistol before 21, too immature to take a drink before 21, and yet somehow mature enough to borrow the keys to the Republic at 16?

shyeah....

how about we compromise? anyone who can pass a civics 101 exam (you know, simple things like "explain checks and balances" "list verbatim the Bill of Rights" .. that kinda thing, AND are a net contributor -- ie, you pay more in taxes than you're currently receiving in gov't bennies/contracts/subsidies/whatever... then you can vote, whether you are 8 or 80.

You don't pass those quals, get used to Resident Alien status.


:)


-K
 
This would definitely give a big boost to the "Free Pizza" Party, and render Britney Spears a viable candidate. :uhoh:
 
What mixed signals society sends to our young people. On many issues we are upping the age that they have to be to participate. How many states now have graduated drivers licences? 18 was legal drinking age in many states until we started the anti-drunk driving push. The new Missouri conceled carry aw requires you to be 23 to get a permit.

I think the only reason a politician wants to increase the size of the electorate is because he no longer can reach the voters that are out there with stupidity.

I'm sorry, but if you aren't old enough to drive at night or have your friends in the car with you, you sure aren't old enough to make policy.

Jeff
 
I can see the campaign ads now. "Carrot Top here with my new ad. It's easy, just dial 1-800-ELECTME..."

16 too young. All the "adult ages" should be uniform, probably at 18. Vote, drink, sign your life away, go in the army, whatever. 18 still way too young to have anything remotely resembling a clue, but they gotta start living somewhere before age 35.
 
Hey chaim, bite me man! i couldn't wait till 16, now i'm holding out for 21 when i get my full fledged citizenship.
This is one thing that I think some of Europe actually has right. Kids at 16 really aren't mature enough to drive in a manner that doesn't endanger others driving the same roads. Two years at that age make a big difference. Yes, much of the higher accident rate of teens is due to inexperience, however when you compare 16 year old novice drivers with 18 and over novice drivers you still have a higher accident rate overall and highway fatality rate among the younger drivers. It would never happen though because suburban parents who are tired of being Junior's chaeufeur (sp?) would never go for it.

However, I also think that it makes sense to also lower the drinking age. First, they are drinking anyway, recognize reality and try to deal with it in ways that would work better to encourage smart drinking choices. Second, when I was a kid I knew people who would have drunk beer but who smoked pot because it was actually easier for a 17 or 18 year old to obtain. Third, if you are an adult at 18, you can serve your country, you can vote, you should be allowed to buy a drink. I even wouldn't mind doing what some European countries do and allow wine and some beers (kind of a half strength beer) available at 16, real beer at 18, hard liquer probably at 18 to be consistent but maybe I might go for 21 for the hard stuff.
 
Teens vote for Student Councils.....on the "let's party" platform......

On another note i thinkmonkeys can vote.....

Monkeys Demand Equal Pay

POSTED: 12:27 p.m. EDT September 17, 2003

A fair shake is a fair shake -- whether you're a human or a monkey.

A recent study shows brown capuchin monkeys refused to play along when they saw another monkey get a better payoff for performing the same work.

The monkeys were trained to trade a granite token for a piece of cucumber. When the reward was the same for both monkeys, they took the cucumber 95 percent of the time.

But it was a different story when one monkey was given something better -- namely, a grape. Then, the other monkey often pitched a fit -- either throwing the token, refusing to eat the cucumber or giving it to the other monkey.

An Emory University researcher says the results could mean man and monkey have an evolutionary sense of fairness -- which may have helped species cooperate and survive.
 
Looking at the big picture, with all the indoctrination they receive do you really think they wouldn't vote for every gun ban out there?

But also, I guess, just because they wouldn't agree with me isn't a valid reason to deny the vote.

Thinkgs like what longeyes said are valid reasons, though, so leave it at 18.
 
While I have seen some pre-18 yo's who seem capable of making a rational choice in an election, they are few. Most, in my experience, would vote for whomever has the "hippest" campaign video and promised the most fun toys.

Come to think of it, this could also describe quite a few people OVER 18. Which might explain Bill Clintoon's election.
 
But also, I guess, just because they wouldn't agree with me isn't a valid reason to deny the vote.

Give that man a cigar. Most of what I have read in this thread points at the main reason kids shouldn't vote is because they might not vote the way "we" want them to.
In reality, they likely aren't mature enough to vote at 16 or 18 or 21 or ever (in some cases). Most people who could vote in this country don't do so. Still, in any of these "who should be able to vote" threads there is always a heavy element of "how can I disenfranchise those who don't agree with me." Might as well leave it at 18.
BTW, whomever suggested weighting votes by amount of income tax paid might want to reconsider that. Barbara Streisand, Michael Moore, and a whole bunch of other people you probably don't like earn substantially more than you. They also, despite the best efforts of their accountants, pay more taxes than you. You sure you want their votes to count more than yours?
 
I think we hashed this one out pretty well in the drinking age discussion. There are minors and adults. Draw the line where you will, but be consistent: Drinking, driving, voting, enlisting, shooting, sentencing.

Matt
"Arbiter of all things"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top