W296 min load range

[ASCTLC]

I guess I'm just all kinds of paranoid with the commonly stated position that H110/W296 being intollerant of downloading too much. Here's where I'm at:

I have a 20" barreled Puma 92 and a 2 1/2" barreled revolver both chambered for .357 mag. Since the longer barrel of the rifle requires less charge than the revolver, I want to load up for the rifle and use those same rounds in my revolver. I realize it's a bit lighter in my revolver but the rounds can safely be used in both if loaded for the rifle but risky if charged higher for the revolver then used in the rifle. I'm new so I want to maintain safety starting ourt by minimizing the confusion, even at the expense of a little bit of inefficiency.

Having said this: I looked at all the manuals and on line data and the minimum starting charge varies greatly for the 158 gr. jacketed soft point for a rifle (Magtech is what I have and Zeros ordered). From 13.2 gr to 15.0 gr minimum. What the heck??? That seems to me to be some serious difference in minimum charges for a powder claimed to be intollerant of downloading.

Maximum loads show to be from 14.7 all the way to 17.0. I realize watching for pressure signs as one works their loads up for their specific rifle so the great difference in max doesn't bother me.

So what I did was take the 13.2 and the 15.0 and averaged them for 14.1 and loaded some up with 14.1 gr W296.

I could sure use some words from the experienced if I am somehow overlooking what the data is supposed to be telling me or if my approach is wrong.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[fourdollarbill]

My rifle data in the Lyman 49th for a 158gr Jacketed shows 16.3 to 17.0 in H110. The Pistol data also shows 16.3 to 17.0 gr H110. I think your 14.1gr load may be too low.
My favorite carbine 158gr Jck load is 16.5 gr H110. It works very well in my 1894C.
My all time carbine favorite is 165gr LSWC GC under 15.0 gr of H110 and a CCI550 primer and the max is 16.2 gr.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't make different ammo for my revolver and Carbine. The only differences you will find is velocity since the longer barrel in the Carbine will allow a little more acceleration before the bullet leaves the barrel. If your .357 Magnum ammo is good for your revolver it's good for your Carbine. I see no reason to make "lighter" ammo for your Carbine.

As for W296/H110, DO NOT download those powders more than 3% from the Max charge. They will detonate if your charge is too light. Also, use a Magnum primer and a firm crimp.

If for some reason you still want to make light loads for your Carbine use powders that are less sensitive to lower pressures like 2400, HS-6, Unique and a few others.

 

[Steve C]

I have loaded 14.5grs of H110 behind 158gr Rem JHP. Picked the load because that was what was on the bottle for 158gr jacketed bullet. These loads where in new factory primed brass and when ran over the chrono they averaged 1,232 fps from a 4-3/8" Ruger BH, 1,336 fps from a 6" Colt Trooper MK3 and 1,560 fps from an IMI Timberwolf carbine. The STDev was around 18.5 fps.

Several months later I loaded some previously fired Rem cases with 15.8grs of H110 and used a CCI 550 primer with Rem 158 gr JHP's but was shooting different pistols and recorded 1,216 fps from a 4" S&W m66 and 1,289 fps from a 8-5/8" S&W M27. The numbers are what they are. Several things could casue the lack of improvement in velocity, most likely component and firearm mix but I didn't see the expected improvement in velocity using 1.3grs more powder.

As for W296/H110, DO NOT download those powders more than 3% from the Max charge. They will detonate if your charge is too light. Also, use a Magnum primer and a firm crimp.

A light load will not detonate but can SQUIB which can then leave a bullet stuck in the barrel. Should another working round be fired off behind it damage to the barrel or even a KB could result from the barrel obstruction.

From the Winchester reloading manual:

*Note: 296 powder is considered to be one of the best powders for use in magnum revolver cartridges. Recommended for these loads are the use of a Winchester or Winchester magnum primer and a very heavy crimp (high bullet pull).
Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition and/or squib loads under extreme circumstances, particularly in loads where less than 90% of the available powder space is being used (low loading density).
Do not reduce powder charges with 296 powder. Any further reduction in powder charge or change in components can cause dangerous
pressures.

 

[ASCTLC]

Thanks guys. My "light load" is using Universal w/ small pistol primer so that's covered.

I will be using a mag primer for the W296.

This W296 is the kicker though. 14.1 is actually the middle of the road load per one of my manuals. It shows 13.2 min / 14.7 max.

A Hogdon site shows 15 min / 16.7 max H110 using Horn XTP.
My Hornady book says 14.3 min / 16.4 max using the XTP.
My old Lyman shows 13.7 min / 17.7 max for H110 (not too trusting of this older manual 47th Ed. but looked just for some hope of reference).

I'll go pull the bullets (only made 13 of them) and bump my charge to 16.3 grains per fourdollarbill's current Lyman manual and in light of the wildly differing data that's out there for this. I'll fire in my pistol first (mid 90s vintage) and then through my 2008 model carbine if I show no signs of over pressure. Sound reasonable guys?

Then I'll do this all again for the LilGun when I get my 180 gr Cast Performance gas checked hard casts.

Thanks as always!
Andy

 

[Clark]

"Speer Reloading Manual Number Ten" 1979:

38 special
158 gr jacketed
+P
S&W model 52 w/ 6" barrel
magnum primer
H110 start load 9.8 gr 874 fps
H110 max load 10.8 gr 934 fps
W296 start load 9.8 gr 883 fps
W296 start load 10.8 gr 916 fps

The 38 special has a shorter OAL than 357 mag, but this change is offset by the shorter case web in the 38 special. This makes the same powder changes in the two cartridges get nearly the same pressure and velocity results.

 

[ASCTLC]

Here are the results from yesterday's test.

Load specifics:
158 gr Magtech .357 JHP
16.3 gr of W296. All individually hand weighed to ensure exactness my first time with this load.
Federal Small Pistol Mag primer
Various cases
Bullets seated to the cannelure and heavy roll crimp
Powder and primers are both current year production.

Didn't feel any more recoil than my Georgia Arms 125 gr Gold Dot hollow point rated at 1400 fps (6" barrel). Like the Goergia Arms load, these are real fire belchers.

My revolver is a Rossi M971 w/ 2.5" barrel.

No issues ejecting at all.

I'm thinking the primers look a litte flattened. A couple are really flat but I suspect their difference from the majority may just be primer pocket differences in these cases?

If primers are this flat in the 2.5" pistol, won't the 20" barrel of my carbine raise pressures even higher?

How much do I download these before my next test or do these primer results look expected for this podwer and load? The GA ammo sure doesn't flatten like this but then again, I don't know what primer they're using and if the primer they use is a little heavier construction to not flatten so easily (just a thought).



on edit: The oddity of the firing pin dent is a wiping action. The camera pic just makes it look like that part is a different color.

 

[buck460XVR]

With most 158s I like 15 gr of H110/W296 for range use and 15.5 for hunting. I use this in both a 6'' 686 and a 20'' Rossi.

 

[ASCTLC]

Thank you for the information Buck!

 

[Jim Watson]

Don't depend on primer reading. Federal primers are the softest on the market. I once scared myself when a middle of the road handbook 9mm load flattened and cratered Federal primers like crazy. Same load with Winchester looked like factory.

Don't depend on recoil, noise, or "feel" to evaluate your loads. In the absence of a pressure lab, the only thing that counts is the target and maybe a chronograph.

Winchester says not to change anything. This would call for using virgin Winchester brass, Winchester primers, and Winchester bullets. Hard to arrange. You must assume that reputable bullet companies were conscientious in developing and testing loads. Components and test equipment can give different results and you just have to get as close as you can.

The barrel length does not affect chamber pressure, although chamber and bore dimensions can.

I figure the whole purpose of a rifle and pistol in the same caliber is to use the same ammuntion.