Wad Cutter Questions?

[Middletown]

I've loaded and shot several thousand hard cast 38 cal semi wad cutters all 125 & 158 grain. When I carry a 38 snub nose I have it loaded with 158 grain SWC and a speed strip with 5 more. In another thread where this was discussed several said they liked full wad cutters for self defense from a snub nose. Makes sense to me but I have never bought or loaded any. If my LGS stocks them I am not aware and plan on looking the next time I go there.

Are wad cutters more accurate than other bullet types?
If so what makes them so.

Can you get the same velocity per weight as semi wad cutters.

Are they revolver only ammo? Seems like I have heard of 1911 shooters using them.

A lever pistol caliber carbine (prob 38/357) may be in my future. Do they also work well in longer barrels.

Because of aerodynamics I'm thinking they loose energy with distance compared to a pointed bullet. Is this another reason to use them for self defense?

Thanks in advance.
James

 

[AJC1]

Full wad cutters are not what I would want in a stressed senerio in a reload situation. A 158 swc is my preference but others may feel differently

 

[fxvr5]

Are wad cutters more accurate than other bullet types?

No. They are sometimes desired because they cut clean holes in paper targets. But semi-wadcutters can do that too.

They can be very accurate, but they do not guarantee good accuracy.

Edited to add: If you're looking for accurate loads, try them. Your gun might love them.

Can you get the same velocity per weight as semi wad cutters.

It depends on how they are loaded. If loaded traditionally, flush, they fill more of the case and this raises pressure and this usually costs speed compared to other bullets loaded longer. But if you load the WCs long, then yes they can reach the same speed. Note; hollow base wadcutters are special and they usually don't get loaded fast because of this risk that high pressure will tear off the skirt while in the barrel.

Are they revolver only ammo? Seems like I have heard of 1911 shooters using them.

No, they are not revolver ammo only. Full 38 Special wad cutters can be used in special 1911s and special S&W autos designed to shoot these bullets.

Because of aerodynamics I'm thinking they loose energy with distance compared to a pointed bullet. Is this another reason to use them for self defense?

No. Well, not distance TO the target.

 

[JeffG]

Are wad cutters more accurate than other bullet types?
If so what makes them so.

Can you get the same velocity per weight as semi wad cutters. A lot of designs are cast pretty soft. Swaged models are harder, but not much. A lot of that ammo was loaded fairly mild for target work. Pushing them too fast causes leading.

Are they revolver only ammo? Seems like I have heard of 1911 shooters using them. National Match shooters liked them in 38 Super, and a special wadcutter gun made by Smith and Wesson.

A lever pistol caliber carbine (prob 38/357) may be in my future. Do they also work well in longer barrels. You just don't want to push them so fast. The jump to the rifling might be hard on accuracy.

Because of aerodynamics I'm thinking they loose energy with distance compared to a pointed bullet. Is this another reason to use them for self defense?

Part of the accuracy of the 148gr full wadcutter was due to a hollow base upsetting into the rifling like a Minnie bullet, and them theoretically flying like a badminton shuttlecock, and their long bearing surface. They cut nice clean holes in paper, no arguing about score. They retain good velocity to 50 yards for target work.
The reasoning behind full wadcutters for SD work back in the day, was the transference of energy. The likelihood of getting 158 grain jacketed ammo to expand out of a snub nose, was less than reliable. They looked like ball bullets when recovered.
To demonstrate this, If you push a square bar of soap through the water, you see the water flow away from the front of the bar closer to right angles, as opposed what a rounded bar would do. (Simulated shock waves. ) However, the full wadcutter ammunition is generally mild, and will penetrate less, than say a full power round. The two coyotes (animal type) I shot with .38 Special with 148 gr wadcutter bled profusely from the clean cut wound.
The theory behind the Keith semi wadcutter was to increase weight of the bullet. (158gr vs the 148 full wadcutter) Couple that with a sharp cutting shoulder, the square front and clean cut tends to be the best of both worlds. Improved inertia and penetration, not needing increased velocity.

This has been my experience. Hope this helps.

JeffG

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

For small potentially dangerous animals - rabid cats, dogs, raccoons, and such - .38Spl wadcutters at target velocities are perfectly acceptable and can be preferable - a solid hit is always better than a clean miss.
We live in a farming community, very rural but between two heavily trafficked highways, so dealing with abandoned animals, rabid animals, vermin and suffering animals is a reality of life. I would not hunt with a full wadcutter or rely on one for defense against a large predator. The inherent accuracy is found at lower velocities and not sufficient for a humane kill on anything over 50 pounds.
In my opinion, the short answer is, a .38Spl 148gr full wadcutter moving 650-750fps is perfectly adequate for a woods gun where you don’t have to worry about anything larger or more dangerous than a starving dog infected with rabies. The key in that situation is fast thinking and a steady aim under pressure. If a coyote or black bear is a possibility, a 4” .357 with 158gr or heavier LSWC at 850+fps is the bare minimum - no pun intended.

 

[Riomouse911]

I load lots of wadcutter bullets and shoot them all the time in smaller revolvers. My main reason for doing so is to increase my practice time with these guns because I am not beating myself up with harder-kicking rounds. 2.7 gr Bullseye under 148 gr DEWC loads are soft shooting and yet accurate loads in any of my .38-357 revolvers.

I also have a 90-odd year old Colt Officers Model Heavy Barrel that I like to shoot, so these lighter loads don’t beat the Ol’ girl up too much.

For SD, loaded to a standard pressure, or even a +P, will give the wadcutter some serious oomph compared to powder puff target loads. A nice plated or coated DEWC over 4.5 gr Unique would be a great place to start for such a purpose.

Stay safe.

 

[mdi]

I have both target and home defense loads for some of my 38 Specials; I cast my own DEWC out of fairly soft alloy and for target work, I use low charges of Bullseye. But for an SD load I jack the load up to a max load of W231. My bullets run about 150 gr and with the SD/HD load I'm getting about 875-900 fps from my 2" 38. I tried the old "reverse HBWC" loads but that was a fail for me. At best best so-so performance. Since I began this SD/HD load in the late mid '80s there have been huge developments in jacketed hollow point bullets with good expansion at snubby velocities, but I'll occasionally load some of my "House Gun" loads, jes 'cause...

 

[.38 Special]

Just to augment the posts regarding accuracy: in my experience, double-ended wadcutters are generally no more or less accurate than semi-wadcutters, etc.

Hollow-base wadcutters are generally capable of extraordinary accuracy - usually the best accuracy a given gun can produce - but are fairly specialized bullets which, among other things, simply can't be driven very hard without causing problems.

 

[fxvr5]

Hollow-base wadcutters are generally capable of extraordinary accuracy - usually the best accuracy a given gun can produce - but are fairly specialized bullets which, among other things, simply can't be driven very hard without causing problems.

Any suggestions for loads to try? Thanks.

 

[nofendertom]

No, they are not revolver ammo only. Full 38 Special wad cutters can be used in special 1911s and special S&W autos designed to shoot these bullets.[/QUOTE]
IIRC --- 1911s and special S&W autos (Mod 52s) set to shoot wadcutter ammo can only shoot wadcutter ammo.

 

[fxvr5]

IIRC --- 1911s and special S&W autos (Mod 52s) set to shoot wadcutter ammo can only shoot wadcutter ammo.

Right. They are chambered in 38 Special (or 38 AMU) and their magazines only work (will fit) with bullets seated flush with 38 Special-length brass. But you could use any bullet, not just wadcutters, as long as it is seated flush.

 

[roscoe]

I load the 147 grain wadcutter for my wife - the recoil is minimal and you can make quick follow-up shots.

 

[Middletown]

Thanks for the info and replies. Nest trip to LGS I am going to see what they have.

Has anyone tried them in tube magazine carbines? Did they feed reliably.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wadcutters? Not at all likely. I would say never, but somebody would come up with one that would.
Semiwadcutters? Probably not, but maybe.

But you could use any bullet, not just wadcutters, as long as it is seated flush.

I recall Maj. Geo. C. Nonte telling a correspondent who lived in a repressive jurisdiction and had only a .38 Wadcutter gun, either a M52 or Colt conversion, that he could produce defensive loads in brass selected - .38 Short or Long Colt - or Specials trimmed to suit; with SWCs or JHPs loaded to magazine length.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks for the info and replies. Nest trip to LGS I am going to see what they have.

Has anyone tried them in tube magazine carbines? Did they feed reliably.

Marlin 1894 in .357Magnum is how I discovered the hunting value in FRN lead bullets. My Ruger Blackhawk liked 160gr and 146gr Speer JSWC bullets and they were perfect boar and deer loads, respectively, from the 4-5/8” revolver barrel. Enter the Marlin which would catch on half jackets and jam in the lifter. Also, while the 146’s were fairly MoD accurate, the 160’s were barely pizza box accurate. The guy at the gun store told me to try some locally cast Lyman’s 358429 170gr and 358430 200gr, both made from “No.2 Alloy” and lubed with what looked like white candle wax. I was very young but smart enough to listen. The 358429 wouldn’t feed but was great for the revolver. The heavyweight 358430 did feed, worked great in both guns, and was remarkably accurate with a 6gr load of Unique. Punched holes through everything out to 100yds. Pretty sure it would’ve stopped a speeding El Dorado in one if I put it in the right place. Yeah, I know, you can’t kill a deer with a round nose bullet cause they don’t expand, etc. etc. only I have done it, quite a few times, and the same bullet in a .35Rem is more gooder. Shot placement rules and for that you need patience.

 

[243winxb]

self defense from a snub nose.

The https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout set new standards for bullet design.

Its best to pick the proper bullet for each use, revolver or rifle. https://www.outdoorhub.com/how-to/2017/10/09/no-1-factor-consider-choosing-self-defense-bullets/

Federal 38 Special 110 Grain Hydra-Shok® Jacketed Hollow-Point Centerfire Handgun Ammo OR
Federal 38 special +P Hydra-Shok® There are other brands better then the hblwc.

 

[.38 Special]

Any suggestions for loads to try? Thanks.

I have absolute confidence in Hornady's swaged 147 HBWC and 2.7 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special. The bullet itself is dry lubed and a pleasure to work with, and the load is nearly recoilless. I've occasionally met guns that didn't shoot it well, but with a solitary exception, those guns wouldn't shoot anything well!

 

[fxvr5]

I have absolute confidence in Hornady's swaged 147 HBWC and 2.7 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special.

Have you tried other brands, like Speer and Zero and Remington? Thanks.

And how did you test them? Was it from a Ransom Rest? How many shots in the group? Distance? What size were the groups? Thanks.

 

[BJung]

I read that wadcutters are supposidly because there is more bearing surface

 

[PapaG]

Back in the sixties and seventies we loaded and sold many thousands of hbwc rounds loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Police departments used them for practice.
I still shoot four or five hundred a year for double action practice.
Out of six or seven 38 and 357 revolvers I shoot, all but the 442 can give me fifty cent piece size groups at 25 yards from bags.
A couple campus cops used to have me load them a box with the open base forward for their Charter Undercovers.

 

[racepres]

IMO The biggest difference is "lighter loads" and I quit using "Hard Cast" a Long while back... also makes a Huge Difference!!
YMMV

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve used the Hornady HBWC and some home cast ones @Yooper Smoker made for me. If accuracy is what you want they will deliver. IME they are potentially more accurate than other bullet types, but it very much depends on the gun.

I shoot them out of a Ruger Blackhawk, so it’s not exactly a defensive arm. They aren’t what I’d consider a defensive projectile either though. A solid wadcutter like a double end or button nose wadcutter might be a good defensive projectile and can be pushed faster than a HBWC. Then again it won’t be any better than a good hollow point. If you can find any, you might try the Hornady SWCHP. I suspect they could be driven fast enough to expand.

I’d say a 158 grain SWC in a softer alloy that offers some expansion might be the way to go. Or find a +P load with an XTP or Gold Dot hollow point if your revolver will handle them.

 

[.38 Special]

Have you tried other brands, like Speer and Zero and Remington? Thanks.

And how did you test them? Was it from a Ransom Rest? How many shots in the group? Distance? What size were the groups? Thanks.

I have not tried (or heard of, technically) the Zeros. Speer coats - or did, anyway; it's been decades since I last used them - theirs with something suspiciously like moly, which I despise. Whatever it was, it got all over my fingers, dies, and guns, and while they shot just fine the mess got on my nerves. As for Remington, I didn't know they offered 147 HBWC bullets as loading components. I've shot their factory loads, which were great, but I don't have that kind of money!

As for grouping, I expect a competition-level revolver to manage twelve shot, two inch groups at fifty yards, with a scope and a solid rest. That is far better than I can hold with iron sights, let alone from field positions, and when a gun achieves that standard I know that anything less than perfect scores are entirely my fault. So far I have not met a full-house race gun that could not do it with the Hornady/Bullseye load.

With stock revolvers, my standards are lower, and I figure one inch per ten yards is a good minimum standard, and about the best I can manage from offhand. As noted above nearly every gun I have tried with this load - sub 4" barrels excepted - has been able to do that, and (with that one exception) the guns that couldn't were incapable of doing it with any load tried.