Waffenlust: What To Tell A German Anti?

Status
Not open for further replies.
We're talking about Germans?

They of all people should not have access to guns.

Never Again!
 
I lived and studied in Germany for a number of years and know exactly what your friend is talking about. Most Germans, especially the university types or urbanites, believe that guns are almost evil. They think that anyone who has an interest in guns must have some sort of psychological imbalance. A few have cited "Bowling for Colombine" to me, which I haven't seen yet. In any case, since the Nazi horror most Germans were brought up to think in pacifistic terms and to believe that weapons are bad, a necessary evil that only the Police or those currently serving in the military must unfortunately use. Most Germans cannot fathom the US gun culture...they call it "eine verrueckte Waffenbegeisterung".
 
I'm a German and have to say that most of her points are not valid.
Wir haben ein kleines Problem mit Deiner Begeisterung fuer WAffen!
We're having a little Problem with your enthusiasm for guns!
Click to expand...
Hier in Deutschland ist es unter "gebildeten Menschen" die nicht durch ihren Beruf dazu gezwungen sind, undenkbar, Freude am Umgang mit Waffen zu haben.
Here in Germany it is unthinkable for "educated" people - who don't have to handle guns as part of their profession - to feel joy when handling weapons.
Click to expand...
Our gun-club is full of educated people. Studied people, engineers, people with doctor's degrees, executives, police officers, people working in the interior ministry, public servants,...
I don't know dumb, un-educated people in our club.
That people who enjoy shooting and guns are dumb is one of the usual, yet completely un-founded arguments against gun-owners.
Die ganze Erziehung ist sehr pazifistisch, man gibt man gibt Kindern keine Spielzeugwaffen, und junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" verweigern den
Armeedienst.
The whole education is very pacifistic, you don't give children toy-guns, and young men from a good family object to do military service.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of THR-members who don't give their children toy-guns either. My upbringing was rather pacifistic, too. I was told never to start violence, but that it's ok to defend myself and the innocent.
I did serve in the military and while on active duty and later in the reserve I met a lot of "young men from good families". And during my studies our dormitory was full of young men who had served, probably because most of them were engineers who tend to be more conservative.
Ich glaube, Du musst uns mal erklären, wie die Situation in den USA ist, und was die orthodoxen Rabbiner dazu sagen! Hier heißt es immer:
Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!
und nun haben wir einen Freund, der leidenschaftlich schießt! Unglaublich!!
I think you should tell us what the situation in the USA is like and what orthodox rabbis think about it! Here the saying is: violence causes counter-violence, therefore keep your hands away from guns! And now we have a friend who just loves to shoot! Unbelievable!!
Click to expand...

I know a lot of German antis myself. But they aren't very different from American antis.
There is indeed a whole lot of gun-clubs in Germany. In a club down in Heslach, a club which was founded more than half a millennium ago (!!), they have a map showing the locations of the single clubs in and around Stuttgart. There are dozens belonging to one shooting association alone! There are some more from the smaller associations as well.
Where in Germany does she live? Berlin perhaps?

By M67:
I'm pretty sure I've met a number of German men from "good homes" who have done military service. Unless of course they have faked their civilized upbringing. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you! John told me he likes shooting your Blackhawk. ;)

WT, my brother would call you a "Dummschwätzer"! :neener:
 
Last edited:
The Rabbi said:
I'll add this is a woman in her 50s and Jewish so she sure doesnt need a lecture from me on what happened.
Click to expand...

Au contraire; she most certainly does. In fact, MOST Jews need a lecture on what happened. Some of us need our faces pushed into it repeatedly until we stop spewing such nonsense as she does. Educated, my a**. I'd trade a hundred educated idiots for a dozen self-respecting gun-toters any day of the week.

I can not say with certainty what is the best approach with this individual, although I lean towards RileyMc's first offering, gender corrected. However, I DO know that everything tried so far hasn't worked, so that should be a hint. By all means remind her that she's powerless to keep it from happening again.

A friend of mine who could not deny the logic of my pro-gun arguments once attempted to dismiss my position by saying, in Yiddish, "It's not a Jewish thing." To my regret, I was not swift enough to answer him, "You're right; dying in boxcars is a Jewish thing." Maybe it's just as well. His grandparents had. And he still hadn't learned a thing.

P. S. You could start by sending her RileyMc's answer and my answer, tell her that I spit on her education, and remind her what an education was worth during the mass murders in Cambodia.

P. P. S. Here is RileyMc's first answer, corrected for gender:

"Tell her to ****, she doesn't have a say in the matter. Her country started and LOST two world wars in the last 100 years, exterminated MILLIONS of people, and she's lucky it still exists as a viable place that can support life, at least for the present time, considering it has become such a socialist hellhole, its days are numbered."

It is particularly appropriate despite your description of her as Jewish, since she seems to have adopted German attitudes.
 
Reagansquad's answer was really more of a model of what I was looking for.
Model520fan's was a model of what I wasnt looking for. Not only would that end the conversation, that would likely end the friendship. And I'm sure she could care less what you think of her education. In fact your attitude will simply confirm that gun owners are all troglodytes. What I didnt want to have happen.
 
Wir haben ein kleines Problem mit Deiner Begeisterung fuer WAffen! Hier in Deutschland ist es unter "gebildeten Menschen" die nicht durch ihren Beruf dazu gezwungen sind, undenkbar, Freude am Umgang mit Waffen zu haben. Die ganze Erziehung ist sehr pazifistisch, man gibt man gibt Kindern keine Spielzeugwaffen, und junge Männer "aus gutem Haus" verweigern den
Armeedienst. Ich glaube, Du musst uns mal erklären, wie die Situation in den USA ist, und was die orthodoxen Rabbiner dazu sagen! Hier heißt es immer:
Gewalt erzeugt Gegengewalt, also Hände weg von Waffen!
und nun haben wir einen Freund, der leidenschaftlich schießt! Unglaublich!!


To those who actually speak this language I apologize in advance for my translation:

We have a little problem with your enthusiasm for guns. Here in Germany among "educated people" who do not need them for work it is unthinkable to go armed in the street. [Its also illegal but she doesnt say that-TR] The whole training is pacifist: we dont give kids toy guns and young men from "good families" decline army duty. You should tell us, I think, what the situation in the U.S. is and what the Orthodox Rabbis say about it. Here it is not so [and I am not sure how to translate this part] and now we have a friend enthusiastically shoots. Incredible
Click to expand...

She's got no clue what she's talking about. I guess she only counts liberal, green-voting, treehugging PC people as "educated".

Maybe her own kids don't get to play with toy guns; others certainly do. It's true that most young men choose to opt out of basic military service but from what I've heard from my friends and former schoolmates their primary motivation is that they don't want to crawl through the mud and be yelled at by drill sergeants :evil:

There IS a gun culture in Germany which does even resemble its American counterpart in some ways. It's just considerably smaller and less obvious. Still, there are several million sports shooters, hunters and collectors in Germany. Shooting and hunting are ancient and cherished traditions especially among country people.


Regards,

Trooper
 
First, Hitler did not disarm the Germans after getting into power, the Reichswaffengesetz of 1936 was the most liberal Germany ever had!!!! Hitler achieved mind-control, making gun control unnecessary.
Hitler did say himself that people are going to believe any lie if it is repeated often enough. The lie about Hitler banning guns proves it.

I left Germany in 1984 after growing up there, serving in the military and going to university. Germans had not always been anti-gun but became inceasingly so in the last thirty years. They started in the kindergardens and schools to tell children to be non-violent, that guns are evil. Now guns are strictly upper class, for hunting and exclusive clubs.

My children went to a kindergarden in Indiana in the mid nineties and toy guns were absolutely banned.

As to what tell your German friend; they are as devoted anti gunners as they were following the trend in the Third Reich. I gave up on the German Antis years ago.
 
Force results in Counter-force...
Click to expand...

...which is the whole point behind RKBA.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

What do you do when someone comes to you with force, and you have nothing with which to offer counter-force? You become their slave, giving them everything that they demand, in exchange for the thin hope that they will not hurt / kill you when you have nothing left to give them, or when they become bored and decide to kill you just for the fun of it.

Equally applicable to individuals and goverments.
 
young men from "good families" decline army duty
Click to expand...

Seems to me that happened in America at one time. Rich guys would send their servants or slaves instead of their sons. I don't think that the non-good families appreciated it much.
 
Yeah, but all these translation programs screw up as soon as the text gets a bit more complicated. While THR is mainly an American board, there are enough members from all over the world to ensure translation of many languages :)

I'll volunteer for German myself. ;)


Regards,

Trooper
 
The Rabbi said:
Reagansquad's answer was really more of a model of what I was looking for.
Model520fan's was a model of what I wasnt looking for. Not only would that end the conversation, that would likely end the friendship. And I'm sure she could care less what you think of her education. In fact your attitude will simply confirm that gun owners are all troglodytes. What I didnt want to have happen.
Click to expand...

Certainly you are free to choose whatever style of communication you prefer, and I would agree that one generally catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. That is one of the reasons why I support Chabad.

However, you might want not only to consider tempering your words so that you don't lose her as a friend, but also to consider what are the limits of her expression which will still allow you to remain her friend. Ideally, you should both be able to express your opinions and interests.

BTW, I certainly would not be in a hurry to adjust my attitudes to accommmodate attitudes of a child of Jewish parents who remained in Germany (or, worse yet, moved there) after WWII. I'd want to know a little more about what is going on there, which, of course, you may already.

My remarks are not intended to be any sort of blanket condemnation of Germans, or even German intellectuals. In fact, I have a Jewish friend a generation older than I who spent the entire war in Berlin, his childhood home, hidden in a medical school by non-Jewish staff. Nevertheless, I think that anyone who lives in the U. S. can easily smell the danger of academic elitism. Regardless of my friend's experience, I do not consider it any wiser to tolerate such attitudes among Germans than among Americans.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Recommended reading: www.jpfo.org
 
Arbeit Macht Frei
Click to expand...


You're bad Scorpio!! ;) For those who don't know any German, this means "Work makes you Free". It's on the gates of the camp at Dachau.

Your friend is wrong, there is a very big gun culture in Germany. I saw many gorgeous shotguns in a store in Rothenburg od Tauber.

Germans still teach their children to be ashamed of Hitler and what he did.
 
allow me to slightly correct the translation of the letter:

"we have a problem with your enthusiasm for weapons. here in germany it is unthinkable amongst "educated people", who are not forced to due to their job, to enjoy handling weapons.

the entire education is peaceful, children are not given toy guns, and young men from "good families" refuse to serve in the army when drafted. i think you have to explain to us what the situation in the USA is like and what the orthodox rabbis have to say about that.

here it's always 'violence begets more violence, therefore hands off of guns!' and now we have a friend who is an enthusiastic shooter. unbelievable"


i was born and raised in germany, lived there for 23 years before i moved to the states. i was a member in a shooting club over there and have shot plenty of times. i have to fully agree with t. stahl - she's full of horse poo :)

there are many gun clubs with many members that are responsible adults from good families with a good education.

the people who refuse to serve their country when drafted and choose to perform "civil service" instead (meaning serve their time plus bonus time instead working in hospitals or retirement homes) are not "young mean from good families". they are either whiny treehuggers or scared little mama's boys.

on a side note, i know of many german guys who come to the states on vacation or business and inevitably get taken to the range by an american gun enthusiast to shoot a gun for the first time (and maybe only time) in their lives - and love it!

just like some people in germany choose not to raise their kids with guns and violence while some don't care, it's the same over here - no difference. some parents care, some don't.

the problem is that the average german is not allowed to have a gun. ignorance breeds intolerance in this case. germans are afraid of guns because they don't know anything about them.

your friend is no exception. given her ignorant position and the typical stubbornness of the average german, i'd say drop it, don't even try to convince her or change her opinion - you won't.
 
the problem is that the average german is not allowed to have a gun.
Click to expand...

Not quite, but you're close enough. Theoretically, every sane adult without prior convictions could legally acquire a gun in Germany. He just needs to join a gun club or get a hunting license.

The problem is that both alternatives take a looong time (typically a year or longer), cost a considerable amount of money and include jumping through numerous bureaucratic hoops and loops which of course tends to drive people away from the idea of owning guns. I know a number of people who really wouldn't mind owning a gun and shooting it every now and then, but don't feel that it's worth to invest such a lot of time, money and effort.

Also a lot of people don't really know how the system works and automatically assume that only certain well-connected folks can hope to be issued a firearms permit (which ist wrong, of course). I've had friends of mine tell me, "Yeah, I can see why you're allowed to own guns, you're a cop after all." The fact that I got my firearms permit way before I joined the force didn't bother them.

Anyway, I'm not ready to give up on this country. I'll do my best to educate people about gun ownership, take them shooting, let them familiarize with the idea of owning a gun. Two colleagues of mine recently asked me if I could recommend any good gun clubs in our area...


Regards,

Trooper
 
What I'd say to a German anti:

<<<Du bisch net dumm, aber der di für g'scheit hält, der isch dumm!>>>

Translation

"You're not stupid, but whoever thinks you're smart is stupid!"

(Old south-German saying)
 
Trooper, good for you! Keep educating your countrymen (and women) on gun ownership...maybe eventually it will become more accepted there. :banghead:

McCall1911, that's a good "schwaebisch" saying (area in south-west Germany, where T.Stahl is).
 
I used to date a girl from Hamburg, Germany. While she was in the states I took her and another German shooting at a local range. At the time she was a 25 year old journalist, the friend was 24 and was a former member of the Bunderwehr. She had never been shooting before and he had only shot in the army. Both were fairly uncomfortable with the fact that I owned several personal firearms that a) i kept in my home and b) have a ccw and would carry most of the time. They both explained to me that they didn't see the need for a firearm, to them it only escalated any situation in which I might have reason to use the firearm in question. I tried explaining that I would only draw and use a firearm in a life threating situation and that I carried it most places I went because the world is not a safe place and I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and have need for it. The GF and I ad this argument several times. I had the discussion with her dad a few times, career Naval Officer in the German Military, his dad was a U-boat captain, real interesting guy. He had to carry a handgun for years as part of his job, but his daughter, my gf, still had issues with it. He saw my point of view and was planning on taking him shooting whenever he came over next but then we broke up. I met a lot of germans on visits over there. Anti's, pro's, both had very good and well argued points of view. Most of the anti's were strict pacifists, had the belief that violence solves nothing in any form.
 
Lots of great shooters and clubs in Germany. Your friend should be persuaded to visit you so you can convert her.

Pretty good hunting in Germany too,
I just didn't care to dress like an extra from Hiedi.

Sam
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top