Want So Bad To Buy From a LGS...

[HexHead]

The VP9 is an extremely hot selling gun right now. To be honest, he probably couldn't give a crap if you bought it or not. There will be 10 people behind you more than happy to pay that $629.

My LGS sells it for $699 and the LEO version with night sights and 3 mags for $849, and can't keep them in stock.

 

[Poper]

Check arizona firearms (not az firearms) in Tempe they tend to have very good prices compared to buds check their online shop as well they tend to have the best deals on new stock on there then ya just pick up in shop

If buying used, look their item over very carefully. Things are not always as they make them out to be.
From personal experience, I will not return to their store nor will I consider anything they put on Gunbroker. Buyer beware.

 

[Teachu2]

so what will you do when there is no longer a storefront to fondle or do transfers?

Then I do more research and buy online. The retired guy who is housebound caring for his invalid wife is very happy to handle a couple thousand transfers a year, and a darn sight more informed than the gun store employees - and never tells me more than he knows.

 

[HexHead]

Then I do more research and buy online. The retired guy who is housebound caring for his invalid wife is very happy to handle a couple thousand transfers a year, and a darn sight more informed than the gun store employees - and never tells me more than he knows.

When the old guy dies, and the storefronts have closed because you don't support them, who's going to do your transfers? Very difficult to get a kitchen table FFL any more.

 

[welldoya]

I've got a feeling that some of the posters on this thread that are encouraging purchases from the LGS no matter what the price actually ARE the LGS.
I don't mind donating a few extra bucks to the cause but I don't care to pay ridiculous prices just so somebody can fulfill their dream of owning a gun shop.
A couple of months ago I was shopping around for a Colt AR. I could order on-line for $869. Called the LGS and their price was $1,525.
Maybe some shops need to go out of business.

 

[TennJed]

When the old guy dies, and the storefronts have closed because you don't support them, who's going to do your transfers? Very difficult to get a kitchen table FFL any more.

There sure have been a lot of new ones popping up around here the last couple of years. I have no idea what it takes to become one, but I can tell you that there are plenty of them around me

 

[SeanSw]

@ shotgunjoel : ~10% is plenty good for roughing out the savings in my head. The extra 1.25% was already spent in gas and time driving around central Illinois trying to find pieces of interest.

Dave's in Mayview has seen my business numerous times and I always stop by when I'm in the area and they are open but the combination doesn't occur often. He even did some bike work for me once upon a time at his old location in Urbana. Every local store has seen my money at some point. My transfers go through a private ffl and I always try to make it worth their time by buying something else on their shelves. It's usually dusty and sun faded but with a series of ever brighter and more expensive price tags layered upon it. I do what I can to support local businesses when prudent.

I won't bother ranting about the deficiencies in various local places to buy firearms and accessories but I don't understand all the moral high ground that often comes with spending extra (and usually a LOT extra) to buy locally versus buying the same thing online. It's the "Wal-Mart is Destroying America" argument all over again and soon we'll be talking about Local Gun Store bail outs. Even if Illinois got the tax revenue off the sale they wouldn't exactly put it back in my pension.

 

[tarosean]

I've got a feeling that some of the posters on this thread that are encouraging purchases from the LGS no matter what the price actually ARE the LGS.

Definitely not an FFL. Nor have I ever needed to purchase a gun online other than Gunbroker or our local Texasguntrader. (I did order one directly from a manufacturer though)

I predominately buy all my guns from one FFL, sometimes he has the best prices around sometimes not. He cannot compete with online market places on some guns due mainly to distributor pricing schemes. Every once in a while I will purchase a spur of the moment gun at another FFL 30mins away, they always have good prices too.

Since the VP9 was used as an example. I picked up my recently departed VP9 for 565.00. 611 with tax since I just tossed the receipt today.

It's the "Wal-Mart is Destroying America" argument all over again and soon we'll be talking about Local Gun Store bail outs.

We will always need a FFL for our online purchases. Thats the difference between Amazon taking walmarts customers and causing Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circut City, etc. to close their doors.

 

[Teachu2]

When the old guy dies, and the storefronts have closed because you don't support them, who's going to do your transfers? Very difficult to get a kitchen table FFL any more.

Gee, how much should I support them? MSRP + 10%? +50%? How about donating $250 per transfer?

Why would I support a gun dealer (call them OBO) with a range when they sell memberships for hundreds of dollars a year that provide free rentals of their guns - and then two months later they sell all the rentals? When they did that, I politely asked that they pro-rate my membership and downgrade me to a lower level for an extended time. They said no. OK. When it came time to renew, I didn't.

My purchases went to a guy who started out as a kitchen table dealer four years ago, and was so busy he quit his day job and hired employees. He had to move his family to a new house, as the gun business crowded them out.

The biggest dealer in town scooped up OBO recently, gaining a much nicer range than what they had. To the surprise of many, they kept the old store and range as well, even though they are only about five miles apart. I've bought a couple of guns from them over the years, but don't really care for their store - it's often staffed by mfg sales reps, who are pushing their products.

It's not all that difficult to get a kitchen table dealers license - you just have to be serious about being a dealer. It takes time and effort to secure local business license, a state resale permit, and a FFL - and a commitment to actually be in the business, even just doing transfers. Thirty years ago it was cheap and easy enough to do it as a hobby, now it's costly and difficult enough to eliminate the guy who just wants to help a couple buds and family members.

Here's the list of those within 25 miles of where I'm sitting right now:
BOZARTH INC (4.8 mi)
GUNS ON DEMAND (6.8 mi)
C & J ARMORY (6.8 mi)
GET A GUN (6.8 mi)
CROSSFIRE ARMS (CA) (6.8 mi)
COX RAY FRANCIS (8.7 mi)
FIVE-O TACTICAL (4.1 mi)
TRIPLE THREAT SOLUTIONS (4.1 mi)
FRIENDLY FIREARMS (4.8 mi)
HAMPTON FIREARMS (4.8 mi)
SUBURBAN ARMORY (5.8 mi)
MIKES CUSTOM (5.8 mi)
MARKS FIREARMS SALES (5.8 mi)
TRIGGERS (CA) (6.6 mi)
BALES KENNETH FRANKLIN (6.6 mi)
WEST COAST FIREARMS INC (6.6 mi)
TOP GUNS (CA) (6.6 mi)
MGM TACTICAL (6.8 mi)
STOWELL FIREARMS (6.8 mi)
SHOTS FIRED (6.8 mi)
CHERRY JAMES R II JAMIE L (6.8 mi)
OIS TACTICAL (6.8 mi)
BROTHERS AND ARMS (6.8 mi)
LJ GUNS (6.8 mi)
CG&B FIREARMS (6.8 mi)
SATTERFIELD MICHAEL (6.8 mi)
JDM CONSULTING (6.8 mi)
RICHTER ANDREW E (8.7 mi)
WITCHER DAVID ALAN SR (8.7 mi)
RUBEN A VARELA - BLACKSMITH (8.7 mi)
GUNS UNLIMITED (CA) (14.6 mi)
MASSEY KENNETH M (14.6 mi)
YOUNGS FIREARM SALES & TRAIN (14.6 mi)
CLOUGH KEVIN & LOUCKS JOHN (14.6 mi)
REYNOLDS TIMOTHY DAVID (14.6 mi)
SHAFTER SHOOTIN IRONS & SUCH (16.4 mi)
RUSSELL FRANK INC (16.4 mi)
TEN PERCENT FIREARMS (23.4 mi)

Realize that this is in the center of California - other states may not be as easy to deal with as mine.

The bottom line is IF YOU PAY EXTRA FOR POOR SERVICE, THAT"S WHAT YOU GET.

 

[Teachu2]

We will always need a FFL for our online purchases. Thats the difference between Amazon taking walmarts customers and causing Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circut City, etc. to close their doors.

Interesting that you bring up Circuit City (or Circut City). I went to work for them in 1986. Before I was allowed to step on their sales floor as Christmas help, they sent all of us to two weeks of training in Los Angeles. They rented most of a big hotel with conferences, gave us each a room, paid us, fed us, and gave us 40 hours of sales training and 40 more on product training for our specific departments. I learned more about customer service there than I did in four years of Business school.

Even though I hired on as Christmas temporary help, I loved the place. Six months later, I was managing the Audio department, a year later the Video department. I made lots of money and loved every minute - until the tone of the place changed from Take Care of The Customer At All Costs to the short-sighted KEEP THE STOCK PRICE HIGH. They were building stores much too quickly, borrowing too much money, and loosing sight of what made them successful.

I parted ways with them and went to work for a tiny local independent audio-video store. When I started, the owner was proud to have finally sold over a million dollars in product the year before. I'd done that my first year at CC personally. I put all that training and experience to work, and was soon training the rest of the staff. My first year with him, we did well over $2 million. I helped him move up the street to a bigger location by designing the layout and doing all the construction, from walls to risers to displays to wiring the sound rooms....and we did $4.1 million the next year, at a far higher margin.

I can't tell you how many times I called my wife to let her know I'd be late getting home, as I needed to stop by a customer's house and help them with their new purchase. I often went with the two delivery guys to set up a customer's new system, make sure it worked, and help the customer get comfortable with it. Many of my customers from Circuit City followed me to the little store. It seemed like every time I'd do something extra for a customer, they would bring me family and friends who wanted someone to take care of them the same way.

For me, the money was a way to keep score, to validate that I was treating customers right. It also fed and clothed my family, allowed my wife to complete her degree, and kept a roof over our heads. That little independent survived Federated and Good Guys, but fell victim to a change of ownership. The original owner floated me on offer to really give me the store and pay him a pittance over two years for his interest in it - and my wife objected. She wanted me to work less, and knew that the store would own me. She was right. So a salesman from one of the vendors bought the store. The original owner knew he'd made a mistake, and it weighed on him - six weeks later, he had a fatal heart attack. I stayed on for four years, battling the Corporate Raider mentality of the new owner, until I'd had enough. I went back to school and got my teaching credential - and a year later, that fine little company had died from the greed of the new owner, who always put himself ahead of the customer. Kinda like some LGS owners.

Many companies become victims of their own success. They start our with the vision of a single person or a very small, dedicated group of people, and those few remain faithful to their vision. They understand what it takes to be exceptional, and they are steadfast in their insistence in being exceptional, in providing excellence. They create a culture within their organizations that recognizes and rewards excellence above all else. That excellence brings more customers, and they try to satisfy that demand by expanding - and often expand too much and too quickly, taking on debt, building more facilities, and diluting their vision and culture by not fully developing excellence in their rapidly expanding workforce. They lose focus on excellence, and begin to settle for achieving growth projections. That soon consumes them, and quality products and services take a back seat to maintaining profits and market share, controlling costs, and increasing volume.

Look at Winchester, Remington, Colt, Marlin, Kimber, S&W, and a host of smaller outfits. Then look at Wilson, Baer, Cooper, LaRue......

Sorry, both for going this long and for having to stop now...

 

[JSH1]

so what will you do when there is no longer a storefront to fondle or do transfers?

There is money to be made just on the transfers alone. The guy I used in Alabama was retired and only opened his "shop" from 10am - 2pm Tuesday - Friday. He charged $20 a transfer and did just fine.

$20 isn't bad for 15 minutes of work.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'll pay a bit more to walk out with the gun but not an arm and a leg. The LGS that has the range I use is always very very high. In 20 years of living here I've never bought a gun from them, their prices are pure science fiction. But I do support them by purchasing a range membership every year to the tune of $150 and I use their gunsmith a lot. Plus I do buy accessories from time to time. Another LGS here is a big chain called Scheel's. Their prices are hit and miss but they have a lot of used guns. I do buy from them occasionally.

Most of the time I buy online. I use a 3rd shop for transfers. They're a little pawn and gun and they like transfers. They tell me it's gravy for them, very little time and effort involved. They have the lowest transfer charge in town and they're good folks. I'd buy more guns there but they're a pawn and gun and rarely have anything I want.

 

[ku4hx]

The problem I have buying locally is not guns, it's loading components. One place that sells bulk bullets has their whole inventory on two shelves in one half of a 10' (or so) display counter. To say their choices are limited is making a huge understatement.

Only one store sells powder and they have maybe ten cans of rifle and black powder stuff nobody is buying. Primers they have at really good prices ($30/1,000 currently) but everything else is in the neighborhood of 40%-50% over delivered internet costs. For Berry's bullets they want approaching double what I pay online.

I very much prefer to support local business of all types and have bought far more guns locally than online. But there is a point where I simply cannot justify the really poor value of, say, bullets and brass. I refuse to pay the local price for 500 bullets when I can get delivered to my door 1,000 for that same cost ... sometimes less during online sales. I feel the plight of local vendors, but being retired and on social security we have a plight of our own to deal with.

 

[danez71]

I don't believe the brick and motor stores are in business to provide a free display room for online stores.

Having said that, I agree with 'if its found in the store then that what they're there for and they should get the business'... to a point.

I'm about 10% guy depending on what it is, how much... pretty much my mood.


I think I paid full msrp for a M&P9c with thumb safety when it 1st came out at a LGS. It was what I wanted but knew I would be very picky on the feel for that purchase. There weren't any M&Ps in the area (in general) for me to fondle in any version of it.

They had it. I wanted it. They took the chance on stocking a fringe gun with the safety on it. I appreciated having it available to touch. (I wont buy shoes online either. Gotta try them on.)

Then again, I bought a Buckmark through Davidsons because the couple or LGS that had one wanted full msrp on a stainless with the URX?? grips. I just wanted a basic Buckmark. I used Davidsons through a smaller store.


I don't do GB or Buds. "I" haven't seen the value of those for what "Ive" bought.

 

[CNobbe]

Sad to say, I only buy new guns online. Its just cheaper, and the money saved can go towards other things.

I will on occasion buy a used gun locally as sometimes they're willing to haggle on guns that have been sitting a while. Best for both of us as they make more and I spend less on the used stuff.

 

[Red Wind]

Sorry, both for going this long and for having to stop now...

No worries. A compelling life document well worth reading. A lot of good lessons can be learned in your excellent post. Thank you, Teach!

 

[tarosean]

$20 isn't bad for 15 minutes of work.

and when there is no competition that 20 bucks can turn to 200. (look at DC for an example)

 

[larryh1108]

When the old guy dies, and the storefronts have closed because you don't support them, who's going to do your transfers? Very difficult to get a kitchen table FFL any more.

Very funny.
Good one!

You may not know of any yourself but I'd bet there are at least 10 within 10 miles of you unless you live in the middle of rural nowhere.

 

[jhb]

Let me tell you a story of how it came to be........

Round here the lgs folks are rude and standoffish.....unless you are a regular or one of those gun store flies that hangs around all the time and never buys anything......ironically. they let new customers stand around completely ignored until they eventually leave due to being uncomfortable. If a new customer was willing to wait the obscene amount of time while the regulars chit chatted and the owner and worker ignored the actual customer. ...when the store folks finally got around to helping them...........

They talked down to the customer and charged them a price that was so far out of line.....they guaranteed never to get repeat business again.

They not only failed at basic customer service skills...but also very basic business skills. Meanwhile the big box stores came in with corporate policies like customer service skills and competitive equal pricing for all customers. No cutting deals for friends and then making up the difference on the new guy standing there. Guess where people went....

Then came along the internet.........put fierce competition that about drove the last nail in the lgs dealers coffin.

So now some lgs have finally realized they about killed off the golden goose and got back to running a proper business with basic customer service skills and competitive fair equal pricing. Some also realized they cant compete with high volume online prices.....but they got smart and accepted transfers to bring in many more potential customers for exposure they couldn't get on there own......... Who will come back when they realize a lgs can be a good one. Plus they might buy ammo mags and other accessories. Then again many other lgs haven't and they have to hit the gun shows and play the games on gun broker to survive.

Guess which ones i spend my money at, and which ones i don't. Like my own industry...folks don't pay me a lot more because they just like me. I have to provide more and do a better job across the board. So i buy online when the lgs i like cant compete and when they can i buy local. I don't feel bad about it at all. I do give the good lgs the chance and if they can get close i give them my hard earned money.

I'm sure y'all see things very different than i have over the years where ya are. This is what i saw. Plus many of y'all are likely the regulars and gun store flies. No offense meant but y'all wont see it the same and couldn't have seen it the same from that side..........it is what it is.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Where I "draw the line" varies depending on any number of factors.

For example, a LGS offers some things that are not so readily available through other avenues. If a LGS actually has something in stock I'm interested in, I can handle it and see how it feels to me and check out various mechanical features first hand.

I can't do that online or in stores that don't have what I'm looking for in stock. Not that all LGS's necessarily stock a huge variety, but you get my drift.

Other factors that may come into play are matters of convenience, having their own shooting range, face-to-face customer service, and so forth. And sometimes, when I consider time to be a more overriding factor, it's quicker to get what I want from my LGS than other sources.

A LGS may or may not have the lowest prices...but there are other factors that are worth money to me which I may feel make up for a higher price. If my LGS already has something I want, how much time and travel do I have to do in order to obtain a better deal elsewhere before all that adds up to the LGS cost? All that depends on how much your time and other resources are worth to you.

For example, I get about a buck a minute after taxes in overtime...how many hours of my personal time must I invest before it's more cost effective to buy what I want from my LGS?

Now, if I'm not in any hurry, I can easily afford to shop around all I want at my leisure until I find the magic price.

It's all a matter of personal perspective.

 

[oneounceload]

For example, a LGS offers some things that are not so readily available through other avenues. If a LGS actually has something in stock I'm interested in, I can handle it and see how it feels to me and check out various mechanical features first hand.

And if you then buy from them, great. But too many will use the LGS to do that and go online and then have the balls to ask that LGS to do the transfer and complain about it.

 

[Swing]

Where do you folks draw the line?

That line is simple; I don't buy at LGS—period. I'm done wasting time on regular gun shop purchases. Gun shows too.

In the last decade or so: C&R items, when I had a license, went to me directly. Title I went through a "kitchen table" FFL in my area owned by a good proprietor. Title II (NFA) items went through a semi-decent FFL/SOT in the city north of me.

so what will you do when there is no longer a storefront to fondle or do transfers?

If NFA34/GCA68 went away tomorrow (yah, dream on), those establishments wouldn't see a penny from me. Until then, in order to be compliant with the grossly out of date law, they get my time and dime for a transfer. If that should ever change, sayōnara.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

And if you then buy from them, great. But too many will use the LGS to do that and go online and then have the balls to ask that LGS to do the transfer and complain about it.

Well, that's the risk any business takes as customers shop around. What's the alternative? Degradation of customer service and sales manners to the point where they drive people and business away? That's shooting themselves in the foot.

Rude and inconsiderate people abound on both sides of the sales counter. The better businesses often turn out to be the ones with the best customer service.

With the advent of large volume retailers, and then the internet, local store paradigms have had to change their paradigms in order to survive. Not really any different than what they have always had to do for any other competing businesses, though.

Just my opinion.

 

[alexander45]

There's a lgs a block away from my house they have a hand full or two of used guns in shop Most of which get sold online other then that they keep the doors open by doing $20 transfers all day long.
geuss who gets my money when I find a deal online?

 

[tarosean]

wellllllllll I spoke to soon... I bought my first gun from an online discount retailer yesterday.