War Relic

[Pistol Ranch]

My wife's uncle's took this off a German Soldier in WWII.
There are no visible markings except for a 25 on the frame, ahead of the cylinder on the right side and a proof mark on frame and barrel which appear to be a single forging.
It nickle plated and the grips appear to be hard rubber.
Hazard a guess about what it might be??

P.R.

 

[Lawdawg45]

The shape of the frame and the lanyard reminds me of a Webley.

LD45

 

[LC '92]

It looks like a Belgian revolver patterned externally after a Webley. Is the proof mark the letters ELG in an oval?

 

[Pistol Ranch]

The proof mark looks like the number one with a horizontal bar in the middle of the 1. It is visible in the attached picture, on the frame, near the top of the cylinder, in line with the center of the barrel..don't know why the horizontal line does not show up. It also appears that the deceased owner scratched his name on one of the grips.."L. Denner."

P.R.

 

[GCBurner]

Looks like a Belgian copy of an English "bulldog" revolver. They made lots and lots of them, and some are even marked "British Bulldog".

 

[Jim K]

It is one of the many thousands of small inexpensive ($2-3 or so) pocket revolvers sold in Europe between roughly 1870 and 1914. It is the equivalent of American revolvers of the same general period.

I suppose a German soldier could have been carrying it, but it is certainly not any official millitary weapon and was never issued to anyone. It was more likely "liberated" by a soldier from a civilian home.

Value is under $100, and purely as a novelty. The story is a story.

Jim

 

[357 Terms]

French?

 

[Pistol Ranch]

My wife's uncles were in Patton's army. Like a number of men from their generation, they did not often talk of their war experiences.
If they said the pistol was liberated from a dead German soldier, I have a good deal of faith that is exactly what happened.

P.R.

 

[dfariswheel]

By the later stages of the war, German soldiers were arming themselves with anything that conceivably could shoot, so I'm not at all surprised that this was taken from a soldier.
From the 1870's to at least WWI Europe had been flooded with Belgian and Spanish copies of pistols made in England and America and there'd have still been plenty around in 1945.

I knew a WWII vet who personally relieved a German soldier of a Flobert single shot "parlor pistol" in which the barrel had been crudely cut off. The German soldier had ONE round of ammunition for it.
The vet showed me a picture of him in a German town holding the gun.

He also had pictures of a small mountain of weapons piled in the town square.
When US troops entered a German town they ordered all weapons to be piled in the town square, meaning military weapons.
The frightened and very obedient German civilians took that to mean ANY weapon.
The pictures showed German SMG's, MP-44 assault rifles, KAR 98 rifles, Walther and Luger pistols.... and just about any weapon you can name from swords, to matchlock rifles that should have been in museums, to these cheap revolvers.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Looks like a good gun for a Nazi to have... when the GI shows up with the 1911 and Garand.

Deaf

 

[19&41]

Volksturm issue?

 

[Jim K]

We never like to think of American troops taking guns from civilians (sounds too much like a Sarah Brady dream) but they did. No German troops were really carrying parlor pistols, elaborate target rifles, hunting shotguns, and little protection guns. But it was easier for the vet to say he disarmed a German soldier than to admit that he took a small pistol from a German grandmother's bureau drawer.

While the Volksturm were issued a variety of arms, they didn't receive ancient revolvers for which ammo hadn't been made in decades.

Jim

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

^ While I wont say that never happened, I believe it could easily be the case that the wehrmacht relieved some French / Belgian civilian of it, only to be relieved of it himself. Or as suggested earlier, a non-issue back-up stowed away.

Its a little bit documented that the Deutsche Soldats were a little rough on those they found themselves in charge of. While we were not perfect i bristle a little to jump to the bad american conclusion given the involved parties.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Jim K:
You have suggested, twice, that the facts I presented in this thread might have some doubtful validity..Example "The story is a story" and A G.I. disarming a German grandmother and claiming a weapon was removed from a combatant.
Once was enough but when the same questioning attitude is repeated over and over it makes me wonder if the "High Road" attitude ever prevails in your daily life.
I will pray for you, sir.

P.R.

 

[Treegunner]

P.R.- I will buy that for $100.00. J/K That is a great story and nice gun. Sorry I have no clue what it is other than Cool....

Jim

 

[Jim K]

Well, P.R., I sure appreciate any prayers as I probably need them, but a story is still a story and is worth absolutely nothing in money terms when selling or appraising a gun.

Jim

 

[Scouse]

Hi Pistol Ranch,

That looks a great deal like a Webley RIC to me. RIC standing for Royal Irish Constabulary, the old pre-1922 police from when Ireland was in the UK. They were made in a variety of calibers, usually in the .45 region. Tough, double action, gate loaded things made in a number of patterns and sizes as well as calibers. It is certainly conceivable that it is a continental European copy, as someone said above, there were many copies of similar revolvers floating around at that time.

Its a shame the history of the piece has been lost, the German soldier's father may have taken it from a dead Ulsterman on the Somme in 1916 or something fascinating like that!

Awesome gun anyway.

All the best,

Scouse

 

[goon]

Jim K:
You have suggested, twice, that the facts I presented in this thread might have some doubtful validity..Example "The story is a story" and A G.I. disarming a German grandmother and claiming a weapon was removed from a combatant.
Once was enough but when the same questioning attitude is repeated over and over it makes me wonder if the "High Road" attitude ever prevails in your daily life.
I will pray for you, sir.

P.R.

My grandfather was an MP stationed stateside in some kind of coastal defense role. He was born in 1907 and I guess being on the upper end of the age spectrum, someone thought it best to not send him to Europe or the Pacific.
At one point he liberated a .32 ACP (7.65 Kurz) Ortgies pistol from a German officer that's still functional and still in the family. At first, I wondered how a German officer could have made it completely across the Atlantic and to the states with a handgun after surrendering. Now I wonder if maybe that officer was extended that courtesy as a matter of honor, or if maybe he wasn't just any officer, but I don't doubt the story. But I also don't have any documentation. To a collector, it's just an old Ortgies pistol even though it's got a lot more sentimental value to my family.

I don't doubt your story either. Just because a German soldier may have liberated this gun and been using it for his own unissued secondary weapon, doesn't mean your relative couldn't have also taken it from him. It's not unheard of for civilian weapons to make their way to the battlefield.

 

[Dogguy]

I don't doubt the story either.

American soldiers also carried civilian handguns. Remember that Gen. Patton was known for his non-issue handguns. During Vietnam, some US troops were known to carry Colt or S&W revolvers that were personally owned. While military regulations today prohibit such actions, it was fairly common practice in the past. So why should anyone doubt that a German soldier was carrying a civilian handgun during WWII?

It also seems disrespectful of the WWII vet who provided the information.

 

[saltydog452]

One of my Uncles mentioned some of the scarce, by today's standards, weapons rec'd from civilians.

One that sticks to mind is about a three barrel shoulder arm that was put into a trailer hitch and bent. I got the impression that had it not been for the third barrel, the family could have kept it.

salty

 

[Ro1911]

It's belgian revolver by the looks of it and the ways it's made I would say it was a nagant revolver made in the 1880s or 1890s. These types of revolvers were among the first double actions ever made and it is not a copy of a webley

 

[CajunBass]

Well, P.R., I sure appreciate any prayers as I probably need them, but a story is still a story and is worth absolutely nothing in money terms when selling or appraising a gun.

Jim

I don't recall anyone asking anything about money or about selling it. He asked if anyone knew what it was.

 

[GRIZ22]

My wife's uncle's took this off a German Soldier in WWII.

No reason not to believe this. My Uncle was a MP and literally took hundreds of weapons from German POWs in France, Belgium, and Germany.

It was very common for German soldiers in occupied countries, moreso where the Resistance was very active, to acquire by whatever means a small handgun for protection off duty. Resistance fighters were doing driveby shootings long before gangbangers. The German soldiers sitting in a cafe being shot by a Resistance fighter in a Citroen with a STEN gun is not just Hollywood. It would seem likely that the soldier would keep the handgun when he went to combat.

Fast forward from that scene 20-25 years and in Vietnam I saw American troops carrying not only S&Ws, Colts, and Rugers for the same reason the Germans did (having a handgun available in combat is comforting) but also Iver Johnsons, H&Rs, RGs, and any handgun you can think of. My experience was they didn't care much whta you brought into the country only what you took out. As long as the MPs didn't catch you and you kept it concealed in rear areas you could get away with it.

Remember that Gen. Patton was known for his non-issue handguns

Patton could get away with it being a General. To this day General officers are exempt from uniform regulations which means if a General wants to wear a hat with a plume and carry a sword he can do so.

The rest of what you say is true as I have related some of it here.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The Germans in Belgium, France, Holland, etc, did just what the allies did in Germany. They made the civilians turn in all their weapons. Likely, Herr Oberst got the gorgeous double rifle and sent it home to Dad. The Feldwebel got the Belgian Webley knock-off and stuck it in his pack.
There's no reason to doubt some GI later took it from him. He was probably disappointed that he didn't get a Luger...

 

[centurion94]

This thread reminds me of a brief moment during one of the Military Channels shows during the last couple of days, "WWII in Color", or one of the others. This episode featured a lot of original footage I'd never seen before and a segment dealt specifically with Goering and his capture. The film showed him being taken into custody and I swear he handed over an American-made revolver to a GI. The American looked at it briefly before handing it off to another soldier. It was over before I could identify it but it looked like a S&W, large frame? Anyone else see that clip? Maybe ol' Hermann was emulating Patton... Wonder which of our guys lost it?