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We owe it all to one country...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by telewinz, Jun 26, 2003.

?

This country's R&D contributed the most to modern military smallarms developement.

  1. France

    3 vote(s)
    1.8%
  2. England

    2 vote(s)
    1.2%
  3. Russia

    7 vote(s)
    4.2%
  4. China

    3 vote(s)
    1.8%
  5. Germany

    79 vote(s)
    47.9%
  6. United States

    70 vote(s)
    42.4%
  7. Japan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. other

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
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  1. telewinz

    telewinz Member

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    In regards to modern military smallarms developement, this country's R&D contributed more than any other.
     
  2. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Has to be Germany, WWII era... first assault rifles, first medium-velocity cartridge, first double-action semi-auto pistol, most successful squad machine-gun, first recoilless weapons, first rocket launchers (Panzerfaust - slightly predates US Bazooka), etc.
     
  3. Snaps

    Snaps Member

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    Voted for Germany, I just finished watching "Tales of the Gun" on the history channel about their small arms in WWII
     
  4. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

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    Germany has been very influential in modern small-arms design. They developed the first intermediate-cartridge automatic rifle (StG44), the general purpose medium machine gun for squad use (MG34), and the first general issue DA/SA autopistol (Walther P38).

    No country alone is "owed it all", but Germany had more than its fair share in the development of modern small arms as we know them today.
     
  5. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    Not even Germany uses German small-arms designs any more; toggle-link (of course, even Hiram Maxim was an American...;) )guns are gone and roller-locked guns are on the way out. ;)

    Their current rifle uses a modified Browning operating system and an American cartridge, while their pistol uses a Swiss modification of a Browning operatng system and a German cartridge. ;)
     
  6. Delmar

    Delmar Member

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    The only military weapons that were invented in the 1920's or before which is still around today is the Ma Deuce and the 1911, courtesy of John Browning.

    Sure, the 1911 might not be issued to regular forces here, but the action has been copied and in slightly modified form, is the basis for most of the world's pistols today.

    There are those who have tried to replace the M2HB, but nothing really has taken there.

    If you want to go way, way back, take Dr. Gatling's invention and spin it with an electric motor and call it a Vulcan.

    What we haven't invented here, we have improved on greatly with our own R&D, from the Harrier to the nuclear aircraft carrier, the M-1 Abrams, submarines and MLRS systems.

    We didn't invent it all, but I'd say we have the most toys on the block.
     
  7. winstonsmith

    winstonsmith Member

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    Isnt the harrier English? Or maybe an american company developed it and it's used by the English.
     
  8. Delmar

    Delmar Member

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    The Harrier was an English development-which McDonnell took and greatly improved on to where it flys faster, farther and with a much higher load carrying capacity than the English version.

    Aircraft carriers were invented by the Brits, as well as the angled flight deck and the steam catapault, which we greatly improved and powered ours with a nuclear powerplant.

    Other examples of things invented elsewhere and improved by US R&D is the turbojet engine-we have taken Sir Frank Whittle's design and now we have, in the F-22, an aircraft which will fly Mach 1 plus without afterburner.
     
  9. 22x9

    22x9 Member

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    I voted other because...

    Italy - Beretta

    Austria - Glock & Steyr
     
  10. cool45auto

    cool45auto Member

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    Germany I think.:confused:
     
  11. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    FRANCE!

    Of course it's France. They developed and were the first to use smokeless powder, the advent which allowed all subsequent innovations to firearms. It all started with France.
     
  12. Boats

    Boats member

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    I had to go with the USA:

    Gatling
    Maxim
    Thompson
    Browning
    Garand
    Stoner
    Barrett (provisional placement as the .50BMG sniper weapon is gaining wider military acceptance but it is still too early to tell if it is a fad).

    I'd put up our A-team against anybody's. Gatling owes nobody as does Maxim. Browning's pistol designs were a force on two continents and the DA/SA pistol is an "improvement" of dubious worth. Browning's MGs didn't prove as elegant as what became the MG42 and its successors, but the M2 has outlived them all on the front line as the Heavy MG par excellance. The Thompson SMG is iconic in a way that only the HK MP5 might ever be again. Garand made the first combat worthy semi-auto rifle. Stoner brought us the lightweight, light caliber AR that even the folks at Izmash responded to.

    Again, when one looks at "modern military small arms" what does one see? The 1911 is still going, as is the P-35. The Beretta 92 owes the Walther P-38. The British service rifle and other wierd bullpups are likely an evolutionary dead end, the Russian one an AK variant, the US one dates back to the late 50s early 60s, the SAWs are mostly beefed up ARs of various action types, the Heavy MGs are mostly derivatives of WW2 or earlier designs. The SMGs owe little to anything in the past or are variants of ARs. Some of the sniper weapons are exotics and many are not.

    The only constant is that everything adopted indigenously everywhere owes something to a successful design in the past except the Japanese, whose guns have always been funky but lethal with no discernable descendants. France pretty much sucks too, though they had promising military revolver designs once upon a time.
     
  13. BigG

    BigG Member

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    The Belgian MAG is a direct line descendant of the venerable Browning Automatic Rifle with belt feed. Arguably the most popular GPMG in the world.
     
  14. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The question is NOT who's firearms are the best, but who's R&D contributed the most to military small arms. Again, that has to be France, with Germany a close second.
     
  15. Dave R

    Dave R Member

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    Three words. John. Moses. Browning. He out-invented any other country on the list by hisself.

    Now if he doesn't count toward the USA's R&D, then I don't understand the rules and will retract the comment.
     
  16. Ian

    Ian Member

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    A couple other American designs: the Volcanic repeating pistol , the Colt 'potato digger' machinegun, and the .22 rimfire cartridge.

    Most innovations came from the country with the least regulated economy - surprise! :)
     
  17. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Cosmoline - FRANCE?!

    GO SIT IN THE TIME OUT CORNER!

    Freaking FRANCE. :cuss:
     
  18. natedog

    natedog Member

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    Ahem. George, whether you like France's politics now or not does not change the fact that they invented smokeless powder, which was (and still is) very signifigant.
     
  19. mattd

    mattd Member

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    I voted germany, but browning would win the owe it all to person.
     
  20. fallingblock

    fallingblock Member

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    "The American System"

    for the standardization of small-arm parts was pioneered in New England in the late 17th/early 18th Century. IIRC the idea was adopted by the Brits for their 1853 Enfield and a commission was sent to the U.S. to buy Pratt & Whitney machines for the new Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock.
    It's pretty hard to get more fundamental than the concept of interchangeable parts!:)
     
  21. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    Actually, the first assault rifle was developed by Fedorov in 1916.
     
  22. resmeth

    resmeth Member

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    It should be noted that the French only developed smokeless powder so they could see which direction gave the fastest retreat.
     
  23. sig970

    sig970 Member

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    Leave it to Russia, and Wolf ammo, to put the smoke back into smokeless powder
     
  24. Missouri Mule

    Missouri Mule Member

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    As the song goes...."Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue".

    John Moses Browning was a god amongst firearms designers.

    That deep enough fer ya yet? USA all the way Baby!!!!:neener:
     
  25. MicroBalrog

    MicroBalrog member

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    "Red, White and Blue - colours of the russian flag too" :D :D :D

    AK's rock. Nobody will ever surpass Kalashnikov.
     
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