Weapons in Allentown PA

[Bookworm]

The other day I was reading my city ordinances online, and they actually have a law against the carry of any weapon at all - knives, guns, etc within the city limits.

Penalties is the police may confiscate the item, and 1k dollar fine.

Now this law makes no distinction between those who are openly carrying, concealed, or whether or not you've a permit to carry. See where I'm going?

I had read that it was lawful to conceal carry (with a permit) anywhere except in a federal building, school zone, and open carry anywhere but in Philly. How can this ordinance be lawful?

 

[DirksterG30]

Welcome to the forum, Bookworm. I don't know about knives, etc. by PA has preemption with guns - only the state legislature can make laws governing firearms. Here is the relevant section of the PA code:

§ 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition.
(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

(b) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Firearms."
This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 (relating to sale and use of air rifles).
"Political subdivision."
The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

That doesn't mean that Allentown can't pass laws like this; it just means the laws are invalid (Philadelphia is doing the same thing, and Peters Township south of Pittsburgh tried the same thing as well.)

 

[General Geoff]

I've carried knives practically all my life here in Allentown, and have open carried countless times in the past couple of years, even downtown. No cop has ever attempted to confiscate my weapons, nor have they ever even questioned me. So if such a law does exist, not only is it invalid, but it's also not enforced.

 

[geekWithA.45]

They may have it on the books, but on PA, "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.", and they pretty much mean it.

The state supreme court didn't hesitate to club Philadelphia senseless over that issue in the 90's, (and as recently as last week!), which pretty much says that Allentown doesn't have a chance.

 

[chris in va]

Do you have a link?

 

[George C Morrison]

Its under codified ordinances on the City website.

http://www.allentownpa.gov/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

ARTICLE 734
WEAPONS
734.01 No Carrying or Discharging of Firearms or Weapons
734.02 Exceptions
734.03 Police Action Against Violators
734.99 Penalty
Discharge of Weapons – 3rd Class §2403 (26) (53 P.S. §2403 926)
Uniform Firearms Act – 18 P.S. §6101 et seq.
734.01 NO CARRYING OR DISCHARGING OF FIREARMS OR WEAPONS
No person shall use, carry or discharge firearms of any kind, air rifles, spring guns, bows and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially inimical to wildlife and dangerous to human safety within the limits of the City or upon any property owned by the City. (9828 §1 6/19/62)
734.02 EXCEPTIONS
This regulation shall not apply to the use of the within-mentioned weapons at indoor or outdoor ranges approved by the Chief of Police or to licensed hunters carrying such weapons upon leaving or returning to the City from unlawful hunting beyond the City limits. (9828 §2 6/19/62)
734.03 POLICE ACTION AGAINST VIOLATORS
The Chief of Police shall have the right to seize, take, possess, remove or destroy any weapons herein mentioned involved in a violation of the provisions of this article. (9828 §3 6/19/62)
734.99 PENALTY
Any person violating any of the provisions of this article shall be fined not more than One Thousand ($1,000) Dollars or imprisoned more than ninety (90) days, or both. (11995 §1 2/21/73; 13034 §5 3/6/91)

You have to wonder how long this Article 734 has been on the books in Allentown violating PA's strict preemption laws.

 

[General Geoff]

Well, that's certainly a new one on me.


As I stated before, however, the law is completely invalid due to state preemption. You may carry openly without a license or permit, with impunity. You may also carry concealed, so long as you have a LTCF issued by PA or a CCW permit that is recognized by PA (see the Attorney General's website for a list).

Basically, if any police officer arrests you for violating that ordinance, it'll be thrown out of court.

 

[Bookworm]

Thank you for the welcome message.

As I thought, the ordinance doesn't seem quite right. It may just be an extra police tool to stop and question, and passed for that reason since the city council must know it wasn't lawful.

I'll call the mayor's office on Monday morning, and see what they have to say about that.

 

[General Geoff]

Bear in mind that that ordinance was passed in 1962, so it predates the Uniform Firearms Act. It's just a relic from the past that hasn't been explicitly repealed.

 

[skidmark]

734.02 EXCEPTIONS
This regulation shall not apply to the use of the within-mentioned weapons at indoor or outdoor ranges approved by the Chief of Police or to licensed hunters carrying such weapons upon leaving or returning to the City from unlawful hunting beyond the City limits. (9828 §2 6/19/62)

So, how does the law apply to "lawful hunting"? And how does Penna. game commission feel about this support for unlawful hunting?

Sorry if this makes the lawmakers in Allentown look foolish. OK, I'm really NOT sorry.

stay safe.

skidmark

 

[Bookworm]

I had an interesting discussion with a Mr Moore today, who works in Mayor Pawloski's office, as an aide. We discussed this ordinance, and Moore was unable to tell me anything about it. I respectfully suggested that I would like to see this ordinance reviewed, and a memo directed to the police department so no more mishaps occur, should they panic to see someone open carry. I'll give them a couple weeks, then try again.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Please note that PA's pre-emption statute refers to firearms. It does not pre-empt local regulation of other weapons.

 

[General Geoff]

Remember also that PA state law's definition of firearm is pistol, revolver, short barreled shotgun, or short barreled rifle. Long guns are not considered firearms for the purposes of the UFA.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Remember also that PA state law's definition of firearm ...

Varies wildly from one section of the statutes to the next, so that in each case you must determine what the operative definition is.

Sometimes it's handguns, SBS and SBR, sometimes it's not.