Well, I said I'd be honest if I saw something wrong with a new S&W, so here goes...

[Six-Gun]

*I will start this off by declaring that this is NOT my gun I will be talking about*

Yesterday, I'm at the range. Just got done firing myS&W Model 686 for more accuracy observation. The thing shot incredibly well, like it did the day before, and I was pleased. No mechanical problems whatsoever.

I come out of the shooting area into the lobby, set my stuff on the counter so I can square up with the house, only to see two guys standing on the other end of the counter looking at a brand new Smith & Wesson Model 329 PD (.44 mag). Scandium frame, titanium cylinder, Hi-Viz front sight - nice looking piece. They sounded concerned about something, and I finally decided to ask what was wrong.

Turns out the gun is somehow recocking itself after each shot! He said he thinks it may have even fired twice because the hammer did not fully reset while he had his finger on the trigger, and the firing pin still able to stirke next shot!! I had never heard of such a thing (frankly, I thought he was full of it,) and looked at the guy like he was from Mars until the range owner told me he's heard of this happening before.

If that's not bad enough, the cylinder release was so loose, it was ready to fall off, and probably wouldn't have last another 6 shots.

This was a BRAND NEW, FIRST TIME fired gun. It just reinforces the point that we tend to buy based on brand, but any gun can be a lemon. This poor guy got the ripest one in the bushell.

 

[BBBS]

Total BS........ I think it would be mechanically impossible.

 

[Six-Gun]

The only way one of the guys at the range could even remotely, plausibly explain this was if the primer on the bullet was pierced, the blowback through the casing might produce enough force to sent the hammer back.

Even this sounded far fetched. But, I did see the loose cylinder release. That part was undeniably bad.

EDIT: I just did a web crawl, and found a thread here that remotely describes what this guy was talking about. This thread is actually talking about guns that did this intentionally (so-called "automatic revolvers,) but I assure you the guy shooting this revolver did not intend for what he said was happening to occur with his gun.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-47924.html

 

[dfariswheel]

IF this happened, it was probably a case of the man accidentally pulling the trigger twice under recoil.

I have seen this happen with heavy recoiling revolvers and inexperienced shooters.

What usually happens is, the shooter is actually flinching under recoil, and inadvertently pulling the trigger again.

 

[Six-Gun]

That sounds reasonably normal compared to the way this guy was describing it. I still have to say to myself - a .44 mag - that's an awful lot of recoil for him to be able to reset his hand and fire again so quickly that he didn't notice 2 shots discharging...

This gun was not in good working condition after a single firing session, but I felt like maybe I had missed something when the owner of the range conifrmed he had heard of this type of thing before (hammer reset.) It defeats any common logic of revolver function I can come up with, but then again, I'm not a gunsmith, nor am I even remotely qualified enough to try and be one.

At any rate, you can't exclude the possibility that the guy simply didn't like the gun, and wanted an excuse to try and return it.

 

[Old Fuff]

S&W has had a number of problems with the 329 PD, including barrels separating from the frame and going down range. I thought that they had discontinued the model.

But anyway. I don't think that recoil alone could re-cock the hammer, although if the shooter failed to release the trigger all of the way following a shot it would prevent the hammer from rebounding, which it is supposed too do.

Also this model is one with the firing pin mounted in the frame, and it is possible it could be stuck forward even if the hammer did rebound.

Because of the substantial recoil (!!!) I can see where an inexperienced owner/shooter could reflexably fire a second shot following a deliberate first one. If this was the case using .44 Special ammunition might cure the problem.

In all fairness, loose cylinder bolt thumbpiece nuts are not unknown, even on golden age guns. Fortunately a drop of blue Loc-tite will solve that.

The gun should go back to Smith and Wesson ...

 

[Six-Gun]

Yeah - I think that's what we all concluded. Whatever the case was, something was definately not right. I still don't know whether to believe the guy totally, but he said he owns other Smith revolvers, so why would he be dogging on this particular one? Hard to tell what was going on here, but if the guy was telling the truth (even if he misunderstood the real cause of the problem,) that gun needs to revist the QC department completely.

I can't imagine if it was inspected at all if it made it out of the factory with major problems.

 

[Old Fuff]

Go to the search feature and use the keyword "S&W 329" or just "329" and see what you find.

I am personally aware of several instances where the barrel seperated from the frame when the gun was fired (I presume with .44 Magnum cartridges) and went downrange. One of these instances involved a military officer at Ft. Huachuca, AZ.

Smith & Wesson is like many other companies - the sales department decides what should be made rather then the engineers. Bill Ruger had an engineering/gun designing background, and he wouldn't touch a LIGHTWEIGHT .44 Magnum with a ten-foot pole. I think he was right. But this opinion does not reflect on other S&W models, such as your 686.

 

[Six-Gun]

Smith & Wesson is like many other companies - the sales department decides what should be made rather then the engineers. Bill Ruger had an engineering/gun designing background, and he wouldn't touch a LIGHTWEIGHT .44 Magnum with a ten-foot pole. I think he was right. But this opinion does not reflect on other S&W models, such as your 686.

You (and Mr. Ruger) make a good point. It's simple physics that a lightweight, heavy caliber gun is going to have lowered resistance to the beating it's putting itself through because of less mass and weight absorbing that energy. I will do some more searches on this particular gun to see what I find. I was searching Google to try and find info on the problem this guy said he was having, but with no luck, but I would like to hear about other problems associated with this gun just for reference.

My 686 has handled .357 admirably. The weight makes it so much easier shooting than I remember .357 to be, but it's not so heavy that it's a burden to shoot. I simply wouldn't want to be firing even .357 out of an Airweight gun, let alone .44 magnum.

 

[Bart Noir]

Old Fuff, if the firing pin was stuck forward, would it not then block the cylinder from turning for the next shot? It would catch on the fired primer, or the edged of the next case (assuming not rebated chanmbers) I think.

Bart Noir

 

[TheEgg]

IF this happened, it was probably a case of the man accidentally pulling the trigger twice under recoil.

My thought exactly -- misinterpretation of what was happening to say it 'recocked' itself I think.

 

[fds5116]

high speed video

Take a look at the video of a S&W 500 at http://www.john-ross.net/guns_and_shootong.htm - shows what recoil can do. A heavy loaded .44 in a 329 recoils at a higher velocity than that 500. Old Fuff has it right, I'll bet.

 

[Six-Gun]

Great example. You can see the guy's finger wrap around the trigger as the gun slows down.

 

[chaim]

Smith & Wesson Model 329 PD

I'm not surprised that the S&W that you found with problems is the scandium. It seems to me that the Taurus titanium and the S&W scandium have had far more problems than the same guns in steel or aluminum. At this point I might consider a scandium or titanium S&W or Taurus for the right price and if it was something I really wanted, but I'd feel much better with the steel gun or aluminum when I want a lightweight.

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Old Fuff, if the firing pin was stuck forward, would it not then block the cylinder from turning for the next shot? It would catch on the fired primer, or the edged of the next case ... (Bart Noir) <<

Yes it would, if the firing pin stuck on the first shot, but not if if stuck on the second - if there was a second shot. I really didn't think this happened, but in this kind of situation where none of us can examine the gun you have to look for clues - even remote ones.


>> I will do some more searches on this particular gun to see what I find. I was searching Google to try and find info on the problem this guy said he was having, but with no luck. (Six-Gun). <<

You will have much better luck on this sort of a technical/firearms specific issue if you search for past threads or posts on The High Road. I already checked this forum, and found several threads with exactly the information you're are looking for. Use keywords: "329" "S&W 329" and "329PD".

chaim:

In my limited experience with these guns I have found that problems occur with Titanium cylinders, and across the board when you combine an ultra-light aluminum alloy/Titanium cylinder or all Titanium revolver with magnum cartridges, (excluding the .32 H&R Magnum). So long as I've limited the rounds to .38 Special Plus-P and less I havent had issues with aluminum framed/steel cylindered guns. I have discussed the matter of ultra-light revolvers vs. magnum loads with several ammunition makers and they don't like the concept at all. On the other hand the sales departments at S&W and Taurus consider them to be the best thing since sliced bread ...

 

[41 Redhawk]

I wonder if the gun was actually re-cocking or simply un-locking. I had a Taurus 425 Ti that would un-lock with heavy loads. What I mean by un-locking is the bolt would drop out of the cylinder notch and the cylinder would rotate upon firing.

 

[pcf]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_51/ai_n13785362

There's some stuff out there on heaving recoiling DA revolvers doubling under recoil. It's the nature of the beast.

Recocking, that's a first!

Screws breaking, things unscrewing, latches coming undone, springs breaking all come with the territory on any heavy recoiling firearm.

 

[Six-Gun]

I think we're slowly coming to the conclusion that this guy was doubling the trigger, but swearing the gun was cocking and refiring on its own.

It would take an awful lot of manipulation by a simple shot to get a revolver to recock and drop the hammer.

 

[sctman800]

I don't remember which magazine it was but an article about the S&W500Mag described pretty much the same thing. When the trigger is squezed the recoil moves the gun rearward so fast the trigger resets while the shooter is still pulling the trigger to the rear hence the second shot. I have never shot a 329 but have a 337PD and altho I have never had this happen I could see how it could on a heavy recoiling round. Mine gets mostly standard .38spl with a few +p and I had to locktite the cylinder latch screw. I also had to locktite the cylinder latch pivot pin on my Super Redhawk .454Casull. Jim.

 

[unspellable]

scandium

I don't think the problems with the S&W "sandium" revolvers have anything directly to do with the scandium. They are actually made of an aluminum alloy with a pinch of scandium in it, something on the order of one to three percent. Scandium currently sells for around $7000 a pound so you know you aren't getting much of it in your "scandium" revolver. Calling it "scandium" was an ad copywriter's spin, it's really just an aluminum alloy.

All that said, a pinch of scandium in your aluminum can do wonderful things for the strength of the alloy. But most of the problems I've heard of have been due to new types of finish and a new revolver design, not the alloy itself.