Well this is frustrating... .308 not fitting in case gauge.

[GravelRider]

I agree.

I wouldn't rule out the case rim, it may not be right with the body of the case.

Nothing looks or measures off to me, but here's a better picture of it hopefully. What do you think?



EDIT: The forum downsizes the pictures. Here's a link to a better resolution photo: https://photos.smugmug.com/Miscella...8/0/00624536/X4/IMG_20211228_201657986-X4.jpg

 

[JFrank]

I continued camming over until it was impractical and I couldn't even come close to bring it down a full stroke. No difference noted at any point.

I'm using Hornady One Shot for lube.

Due to the angle of the case you cannot cam over enough to significantly change the radial dimensions, ( of that particular dies internal dimensions) Mike Ezell did the math once. Some times I measure this direction to identify the max expansion approx .200 line

 

[GravelRider]

If you aren't in a big hurry, you might consider contacting RCBS. I'd imagine they will want you to send them the die and some brass. If something is wrong with the die they will fix it.

The small base die is a good idea too.

That's a great idea too. This forum is usually my go-to for quick insightful second (and many more) opinions by a lot of experienced reloaders. I use this forum WAY more than dedicated reloading forums!

 

[Skgreen]

Unsure if this is applicable here, but when I first started loading for 6.5 CM, I purchased Hornady 'New Dimension' dies and had the same issues.
I purchased a set of RCBS dies and the sizing issue went away.

 

[GravelRider]

Due to the angle of the case you cannot cam over enough to significantly change the radial dimensions, Mike Ezell did the math once. Some times I measure this direction to identify the max expansion approx .200 line

Yes, understood. I was doing that more so just to prove to myself that die adjustment played no role in my issues.

When I measure that direction in your picture, I get between 0.4700 and 0.4705." The factory ammo was 0.4680."

 

[JFrank]

Do yourself a favor and order some fresh brass and skip the SB die.
Just a thought

 

[GravelRider]

Do yourself a favor and order some fresh brass and skip the SB die

The price of the SB die will be well worth it to me if it sorts out my problem, if for no other reason than the need to know what the issue is. And I'm assuming I'll only need one SB sizing, and I'll be good to then FL resize after that... Though we'll see if that's the case.

But what makes you say this? Do you have experience in brass that won't size correctly that makes you think it's a lost cause?

 

[JFrank]

Yes, understood. I was doing that more so just to prove to myself that die adjustment played no role in my issues.

When I measure that direction in your picture, I get between 0.4700 and 0.4705." The factory ammo was 0.4680."

View attachment 1047994

Is this after sizing ?

 

[GravelRider]

Is this after sizing ?

Yes. After sizing.

 

[Atavar]

Here's another picture of it in the case gauge. There is actually a bit of space between the case and gauge all around the shoulder. It doesn't show up well in the pictures though.

View attachment 1047988

I'm not understanding what you mean by the feeler gauge. Wouldn't that increase the distance between the shell holder and the die? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

When you press the shell in to the die it is the floor of the shell holder that does the pushing. Putting a feeler gauge under the case in the shell holder would shim up the floor of the shell holder, pushing the case that tiny bit more in to the die. Adding metal (with a shim) to the floor of the case holder should have the same effect as shaving the face of the shell holder so the die can come closer. Moving the case toward the die instead of the die toward the case.
This is assuming there is some space in the case holder to allow a shim to be inserted under the case.
I suggested a feeler gauge because it is a common tool with a known uniform thickness and harder than brass.

 

[GravelRider]

When you press the shell in to the die it is the floor of the shell holder that does the pushing. Putting a feeler gauge under the case in the shell holder would shim up the floor of the shell holder, pushing the case that tiny bit more in to the die. Adding metal (with a shim) to the floor of the case holder should have the same effect as shaving the face of the shell holder so the die can come closer. Moving the case toward the die instead of the die toward the case.
This is assuming there is some space in the case holder to allow a shim to be inserted under the case.
I suggested a feeler gauge because it is a common tool with a known uniform thickness and harder than brass.

Ohhhhh! I misread completely. I thought you (and @BBarn ) were saying to put the feeler gauge between the shell holder and the die. LOL. What you're saying makes perfect sense. I've moved from the bench to the bedroom on my phone, so I won't be able to try this tonight, but it's definitely worth a shot. I'll have to trim down my feeler gauges to fit between the sides of the shell holder, but that won't be a problem. I'll report back after trying that.

I do truly love this forum and all the collective experience here.

 

[Slamfire]

Where did I miss the question of what rifle was the cartridge fired in?

You will soon learn, I expect, that even brass sized with a small base die is so large, that it won't reduce to fit a gauge. There are chambers out there, so large, that the brass coming out of them cannot be reduced with standard reloading equipment. And that can be a bummer. However, the market has adapted, and the solutions are roll sizers:

first up the Case Pro 100

http://www.casepro100.com/




another roll sizer:



https://www.rollsizer.com/

an article on this:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/02/rollsizer-rollsizing-your-brass/

a 308 roller sizer, a bargain at $1,970!

https://immortobot.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

At some level of ballooning, industrial level equipment has to be used to swag the cases down to minimum dimensions. And the stuff ain't cheap. Which is another reason no one talks about this stuff.

 

[JFrank]

Yes. After sizing.

Keeping in mind that not all dies are created equal a typical .473 bolt face reamer cuts to .471 at the .200 datum so from your measurements you are only sizing .0005- barely.001 whereas you should be sizing to .469- .4695
Added .it doesn’t appear your die is capable of overcoming the brass memory from the previous chamber

 

[GravelRider]

Where did I miss the question of what rifle was the cartridge fired in?

You will soon learn, I expect, that even brass sized with a small base die is so large, that it won't reduce to fit a gauge. There are chambers out there, so large, that the brass coming out of them cannot be reduced with standard reloading equipment. And that can be a bummer. However, the market has adapted, and the solutions are roll sizers:

first up the Case Pro 100

http://www.casepro100.com/




another roll sizer:



https://www.rollsizer.com/

an article on this:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/02/rollsizer-rollsizing-your-brass/

a 308 roller sizer, a bargain at $1,970!

https://immortobot.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295

At some level of ballooning, industrial level equipment has to be used to swag the cases down to minimum dimensions. And the stuff ain't cheap. Which is another reason no one talks about this stuff.

Yikes! As much as I love lying to the wife about how much I spend on reloading equipment, that's going to be out of my price range to fix this problem. I'd be much better off buying a boatload of brand new brass! Never knew this equipment existed. Thanks for the knowledge upgrade!

EDIT: And I fired it out of a new PSA AR10, 18" stainless 1/10 barrel. Budget AR10 at <$1000.

 

[GravelRider]

Keeping in mind that not all dies are created equal a typical .473 bolt face reamer cuts to .471 at the .200 datum so from your measurements you are only sizing .0005- barely.001 whereas you should be sizing to .469- .4695
Added .it doesn’t appear your die is capable of overcoming the brass memory from the previous chamber

Well, this makes perfect sense. I'll see how that SB die works out and report back. Thank you!

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Just a FYI, all Hornady size dies are cut to small base dimensions. Just something to keep in mind going forward.

 

[someguy2800]

I have ran into this before loading used military brass in 223. Some of the machine gun chambers are gigantic and a normal sizing die won’t get them down enough to chamber. My reloading procedure for all military brass is to use a redding small base body die first. Never had a problem after I added that step. The redding body die can be particularly useful because it doesn’t touch the neck so you can even use it on loaded ammo

 

[JFrank]

When you press the shell in to the die it is the floor of the shell holder that does the pushing. Putting a feeler gauge under the case in the shell holder would shim up the floor of the shell holder, pushing the case that tiny bit more in to the die. Adding metal (with a shim) to the floor of the case holder should have the same effect as shaving the face of the shell holder so the die can come closer. Moving the case toward the die instead of the die toward the case.
This is assuming there is some space in the case holder to allow a shim to be inserted under the case.
I suggested a feeler gauge because it is a common tool with a known uniform thickness and harder than brass.

Your feeler gage will not survive the experience.

 

[Slamfire]

Yikes! As much as I love lying to the wife about how much I spend on reloading equipment, that's going to be out of my price range to fix this problem. I'd be much better off buying a boatload of brand new brass! Never knew this equipment existed. Thanks for the knowledge upgrade!

EDIT: And I fired it out of a new PSA AR10, 18" stainless 1/10 barrel. Budget AR10 at <$1000.

Might be PSA deliberately used a reamer with an oversized case head cut. I was told by a gunsmith that he had seen production barrels for gas guns, where the maker had deliberately made a non standard reamer, which cut the case head area larger, so the barrel maker would not get complaints about rounds not feeding. Incidentally, most of my military barrels have chambers that could double as Zeppelin shelters. Military contractors started with huge, fat reamers, cut chambers as large as they could, and also, big dimensions had to have been specified by certain Armies as they wanted every round to chamber and extract, regardless of how loose the production tolerances of the ammunition.

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

Instead of shaving the shell holder is there enough slack to slip a feeler gauge under the case in the shell holder to shim it a bit closer to the die?

That will raise the case into the die by whatever the rim to shell holder tolerance is. I'd guess .003-.005".

 

[GravelRider]

I have ran into this before loading used military brass in 223. Some of the machine gun chambers are gigantic and a normal sizing die won’t get them down enough to chamber. My reloading procedure for all military brass is to use a redding small base body die first. Never had a problem after I added that step. The redding body die can be particularly useful because it doesn’t touch the neck so you can even use it on loaded ammo

I've reloaded a lot of .223 for various AR15s without any issues. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe the 308 is more notorious for this. Either way, I'm grateful to this forum for (most likely) figuring out the issue.

Redding SB die is already ordered.

 

[GravelRider]

Your feeler gage will not survive the experience.

Good to know. I may just wait for the SB die...

Might be PSA deliberately used a reamer with an oversized case head cut. I was told by a gunsmith that he had seen production barrels for gas guns, where the maker had deliberately made a non standard reamer, which cut the case head area larger, so the barrel maker would not get complaints about rounds not feeding. Incidentally, most of my military barrels have chambers that could double as Zeppelin shelters. Military contractors started with huge, fat reamers, cut chambers as large as they could, and also, big dimensions had to have been specified by certain Armies as they wanted every round to chamber and extract, regardless of how loose the production tolerances of the ammunition.

Sorry, my reply was a bit misleading. This is all recently purchased once-fired brass, so I have no idea what gun it was fired in first.

I first noticed an issue when firing the reloaded ammo out of my PSA AR10.

 

[243winxb]

A comparitor should be used to compare fired brass to resized brass. It measures head to datum. You dont want to push the shoulder back more then needed, with a SB die.
An auto loaders fired brass may be larger then tne chamber. If action opens a little to soon?

I use a home made comparitor

 

[illinoisburt]

I ran into this years ago with military 30-06 brass and found a simple solution. More than likely the issue is one of friction. This is why we see broken presses. Do yourself a favor and ditch the One-shot. Pick up an old school pad lube and throat brush. The difference in sizing pressure is huge and will allow the cases to get fully into the die, especially with once fired machine gun brass. Im using lyman, but any of them should be fine.

 

[joneb]

Nothing looks or measures off to me, but here's a better picture of it hopefully. What do you think?

The earlier pic in question, the case head appeared rounded and distorted.
So what gun was the case in question fired from?