Were German weapons of WWII superior to U.S. weapons?

[cooch]

Yes, radar did help the English, but what cost the Germans the Battle of Britain were the Germans themselves, and Winston Churchill.

Not insignificant help, given that it permitted the RAF to outnumber and outposition the Luftwaffe with tailored responses, not relying on standing patrols which by their nature would be outnumbered by a concentrated German attack.

Where the RAF ran into trouble was replacing their losses in pilots. Even transfering pilots from Bomber Command and using foreign (Czech, Pole, French, and even a few US) pilots, they were losing pilots faster than they could replace them.
Two more weeks at that rate of loss, and the RAF would cease to be an effectve fighting force.

Agreed.
No-one has ever said that it was not a close-run thing.

The next day, Churchill gambled with the fate of his nation. He sent a small force of RAF bombers to bomb Berlin that night.

I would not so describe this action.
Yes, it possibly changed the course on the BoB, but arguing that the whole war hung on this one action - and that Churchill knew it - is stretching things IMHO.

Cordially......... Peter

 

[tinygnat219]

Heh... I think the victor's Small Arms automatically beat the losers by the fact that to the victor go the spoils.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

A while back I remember reading an article about this German Luger that was chambered for .45ACP of all things.



A few (2?) were made as prototypes and they went through the trials for a new US service pistol. The 1911 won, and the prototype that went through the torture trials was destroyed.

Cosmoline, I dont think all were destroyed. IIRC on the History Channel program Tales Of The Gun it was shown that somehow one had survived, and needless to say, is now worth a small fortune.

 

[Lonestar49]

Intersting fact if really true.

...

First, to the OP's question: Without doubt, the Germans led the way in all arms, Tanks, ships, boats, rockets, and airplanes to jets, and the art of communications within their battle-tanks to talk to each other, via radio, tank to tank.

Here's what I read (somewhere) to be true: As some of you may or may not know, the Russian's first, and continued, T-Tanks were the first modern tank, and those T-tanks kicked ass against German tanks in WWII by use of the first sloped armor, speed, and a decent gun, plus of course, the simple Russian Horde Doctrine, simple, same-design, built in mass.

Here's where that bit of history gets real interesting. Apparently, an American, of what original birth place, I cannot say, but a US Citizen, actually drew and designed the T- Tank (that Russia built) which was refused by our War Dept. in favor of the highly, political, Sherman Tank/s, that were built by converted Auto plants, and using inferior guns, along with the motors.

After his design was refused, he sold it to the Russians (our Allies at the time) and of course, the T-tank made history and they of course, took all the credit for it.

If true, and I lean towards it is, it's just another true story of the power of greed among friends in high places, at the cost of those that died in the 100's, in order to get (in sacrificing numbers/kills of Shermans and their crews) facing head to head with one German tank, or more, while trying to close a 2000 meter gap, in order for their far inferior tanks gun, and armor, to take their first shots, that did no damage to the fronts of any German tanks, but allowed (in mass numbers) other Shermans to maneuver out and to the German tanks, flanks, and more effectively, in killing of German Tanks, to their rears and take them out from behind, at the cost of their brave fellow Tankers getting killed from their head-on positions, starting at 2000 meters, from superior German Guns in their superior armored tanks, without even getting a shot off, until under 1000m..


LS

 

[Detritus]

Here's where that bit of history gets real interesting. Apparently, an American, of what original birth place, I cannot say, but a US Citizen, actually drew and designed T- Tank,

Walter Christie didn't design the BT and T-34 tanks, the Russians used his suspension system design (not sure if they bought it, or if it was the fruit of espionage) and they chose to develop his usage of sloped armor as well. the russians weren't the only users of Christie style tanks, the British had the Crusader, covenenter, and comet.

 

[Satch]

German weapons

It's true the Germans had many superior weapons and it's also true that they were overwelmed be the United States ability to produce more than they(the Germans) could imagine. At the battle of the Bulge the advancing Germans were amazed at the amount of ammunition,gas,food,etc.,they overran. Then they also ran into another American weapon they didn't count on,and later complained about to historians,----"those damned Engineers".

 

[skypirate7]

I'm going to look at things from a different angle than most of you...

Small arms and infantry weapons
K98 = 1903
Stg44 > M1 Garand
Mp40 > Thompson
MG 42 > Browning and BAR
Panzerfaust > Bazooka
Potato masher grenade < Pineapple grenade

Air power
Me262 > P51 Mustang
German bombers < American bombers
German long-range rockets such as V2 > nobody else had them

Armor
German tanks > American tanks

Navy
German surface ships < American surface ships
German u-boats > American subs


Generals
German generals > American generals




In my opinion, the Germans were superior to the Americans. However, the Germans were significantly outnumbered. Had it been an equal 1:1 force match-up, the Germans would have won. Instead they were trying to take on millions of Soviets and millions of Americans/British all at the same time. They nearly knocked the British out of the war and they came within sight of Moscow.

The main reason the Allies won was not because of better tactics or better weapons or better soldiers. It was because the allies vastly outnumbered the Germans. Watching movies like Saving Private Ryan will give you the opposite impression. The typical battle wasn't a small band of Americans holding out against an overwhelming number of Germans. It was a small band of Germans holding out against an overwhelming number of Americans. The Germans were the underdogs and they were the ones who had to kill 10 soldiers and tanks for every 1 of their soldiers and tanks killed. Read about Rommel's battles in North Africa and you'll be absolutely shocked. This guy was outnumbered more than 3:1 and yet his offensive was seemingly unstoppable and he went all the way to Egypt before he was finally stopped.

Some people are trying to compare the M1 Garand to the K98 to argue that the American squad was superior to the German squad and that's absurd. You have to look at the squad overall, and that would include the MG42's which the German squad was based on. The Stg 44 is also completely ignored by M1 Garand fans yet it was definitely superior to the M1 Garand. However, it came out too late in the war to make a difference.

Naval power was one aspect where the Allies held a solid advantage. The Germans could only hope for hit-and-run attacks with u-boats.

With regards to armor, the Germans totally had the Americans outclassed. Only the Soviets could really challenge German armor.

The Germans had good defensive air technology, even late in the war. Their Me262 jet fighters shredded Allied bomber formations. But they just didn't have enough of them. The Germans were also very lacking in air offensive power. Late in the war, the only way they could strike out at London was with V2 rockets.

Finally, I think it's important to stress that it was the Soviets who really defeated the Germans. Don't get me wrong, the Americans and British helped a lot... but the German army had its back broken in Russia. Ultimately, it was the Soviets who took Berlin.

 

[Cosmoline]

In keeping with that theme:

Jeep > Horse
American Industry >> German Industry
Millions of PO'd Frontoviks >> Assorted Italians & E. Europe Conscripts
American Artillery > German Artillery

Our fantastic artillery during WWII is frequently overlooked, perhaps because howitzers aren't as sexy as big tanks or rockets. But the fact is our artillery and fire control methods were second to none. We vaporized a LOT of Germans with precise artillery strikes that they had no possible hope of duplicating. Expecting to fight only short blitzkrieg style campaigns hey had relied too much on their airpower and hadn't developed a large enough mechnized artillery support system. Much of it was still horse-drawn even late in the war! They were also mired under old fashioned systems of artillery spotting where only trained, designated and annointed FO's (usually officers) could do it. In our system, folks down to the platoon level could get on the horn and call down the thunder as FO. It was much more democratic. The old Prussian generals would shudder at the notion of some unclean enlisted man with a crude accent ordering the expenditure of so many thousands of marks worth of shells.

Even the mighty Tiger tank stood zero chance against our un-sexy artillery. Indeed, one of the reasons our close range weaponry remained somewhat pedestrian is because our military's goal was to "make the other SOB die for his country." So if we could destroy them with well-placed shells we did it, instead of sending GI's in to duel Garand vs. Mauser.

A great first-hand account of workaday American artillery firepower vs. the elite Panzer units is "Enemy North, South, East, West" by Robert Weiss

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...t_details/104-5987954-5079945?ie=UTF8&seller=

The typical battle wasn't a small band of Americans holding out against an overwhelming number of Germans. It was a small band of Germans holding out against an overwhelming number of Americans.

This is a good point, and generally true (though there were exceptions).

Ultimately, it was the Soviets who took Berlin.

Not to get too far off on a side issue, or to downplay Ivan's role, but we were held back at the Elbe and were never given a chance to attack Berlin. How much of that was political and how much military is often disputed, but there's no denying Stalin had long claimed Berlin by right, and would not have been happy to see the Third Army joining in the last weeks of the campaign.

 

[balletto]

re: German vs. Allied weaponry-air and naval

re: air power
The fact that the Germans had the Me262 and the FW190 (both excellent planes) is irrelevant, as they had neither the fuel, nor trained pilots to fly them. German industry produced aircraft in quantities sufficient to partially challenge the allies in the air superiority battle, well into 1945, but the lack of pilots and fuel was crippling. The crippling of German fuel production and transportation of the same is probably the biggest result of the Allied strategic bombing campaign.

re: the battle for the Atlantic
The battle against the German submarines was won by a combination of:
1. radio direction finding detecting subs and routing hunter-killer groups to sink them, the result of German subs foolishly following orders to report back to base too frequently
2. the introduction of both long range patrol aircraft, and escort carriers, to provide air support for convoys
3. accurate and timely codebreaking to determine German naval intentions
4. the production and training of vast numbers of escort ships and groups to provide protection to the trans-Atlantic convoys-a notable and unheralded contribution by both the Americans and Canadians
5. American industry producing massive quantities of shipping and war material

Sorry I can't provide citations for all of the above, just trust me.

 

[cbsbyte]

Panzerfaust > Bazooka

That is not a good comparison since they are two different designed weapons. The better comparison is between a Bazooka, and a Panzerschreck, which are similar in design and operation. The Panzershreck was based on captured Bazookas, but bored up to a 88mm.

Other than that I agree with what you wrote.

Jeep > Horse

The Germans did rely heavily on horses throughout the war, they also had very capable vehicles similar to the Jeep. The Germans manufactured the Kübelwagen, and the water fording Schwimmwagen throughout the entire war. They where very cheap to build and maintain similar to a jeep.

 

[pete f]

The simple fact that both the Germans and the Japanese were able to roll out new weapons and aircraft even to the end of the war shows something about the difficulty in beating a determined opponent.

Germany had many V weapons in development as well as new fighters and bombers and armor that were very advanced at the close of the war. The Germans continued to work on atomic weapons but had many set backs due to Allied intelligence and resistance efforts.

The Norwegians sinking a ferry containing heavy water, British Mosquito attacks on a test lab in the alps. American heavy bomber attacks on machinery factories all had a devastating effect.

In the movies, German Armor squeaks just as much as anyones, Anyone who has spent a few days around tanks and tracks, knows that they all creak and squeak.

If you really want to understand the amount of equipment and effort that America put into the war, read some of the books on the giants of american industry at the time. Henry J Kaiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Shipyards) was just one, read his biography and see what we had going here as ways to produce equipment. Understand that in FIVE days that's right FIVE DAYS, the SS Robert S Peary, a Liberty ship, a 440 foot, 13,000 ton ship was built in FIVE days. Look at the people behind North Carolina Shipbuilding Company, from river bank to one of the top production ship yards in the WORLD in less than three years.

A pretty good primer on the Marine building capacity is here...http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/116liberty_victory_ships/116liberty_victory_ships.htm

Consider that Henry and Edsel Ford took aircraft production to incredible levels producing a B-24 every hour at the Willow Run factory. Everyday, 24 new bombers rolled off the line, at just one factory, of just one type.

Understand that the US was fighting two wars, against separate enemies, on fronts spread out over most of the world. We were building ships at a rate many car builders of the day would have found impressive. We took car makers and had them making tanks, airplanes and artillery. We produced enough food to feed two other nations and made sure their armies were fed as well. WE had one mine, (the Hull-Rust mine) that supplied ONE FOURTH of the Iron ore used by the US in WWII, in the process we dug a hole nearly 600 feet deep, a mile wide and 2 miles long.

The Germans built 1400 ME 262's in all variants, but because they were spread out all over germany for safety from production, because skilled pilots were not available, and because slave labor often did a poor job of construction, only about 300 or so reached combat units.

United states fighter production.

P51's 15,875

P47's 15,686.

P38's 10,037

Hellcat's 12,275

wildcat's 7,732

Corsairs 12,571

Airacobra 9,562

superCobra 3,303

P40's 13,738

Total 100,779 fighter aircraft,

This does not count light, medium, and heavy bombers (30,000 alone in B-24's and B-17's) , C 47 and C 46's. Catalina's, and other types.