Were Lincoln and FDR REALLY that bad?

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Excuse me, but how exactly was the South standing up for liberty while allowing slavery to exist?
The same way Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were standing up for liberty while allowing slavery to exist.

The same way that the authors of the 13th Amendment were standing up for liberty even though they carved out an exception to it (Slavery as punishment is allowed under the Constitution to this day.)
 
You stated that your capstone was the suspension of habeous corpus, then you never mentioned it again. So? Did he?

Yes. Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus during Congressional recess. The special session of congress convened on July 4, 1861 recognized his emergency actions and retroactively legalized them as if they were acts of congress. The Supreme Court upheld habeas suspension for the duration of the war, then reversed things in 1866 with Milligan.


As for the rest, no, South Carolina did not have any authority to trump Federal supremacy, nor any legal right to wage war against the government of the United States.
 
Whatever you think about the subject of this thread here, the one thing I think is how biased is the information that we are presented throughout our lives. The textbooks, teaching, etc. is a big problem, let alone the disinformation spewed forth from our news media.

The only thing I can offer is the best education you can get is one you provide yourself. Read some books, do not allow people to influence you by rhetoric. Trust your own observations. Listen to yourself. I'm done. :)
 
Benjamin

As for the rest, no, South Carolina did not have any authority to trump Federal supremacy, nor any legal right to wage war against the government of the United States.

You just don't get it. Nobody gave the federal govt. supremecy before Lincoln. He did it.

When a member of a voluntary union resigns then they don't belong to the union and ejecting foreign troops off your property is not waging war against the govt. of the United States.

Voluntary union, think voluntary union.

If I quit paying NRA dues, then I am not doing vandalism to the rear window of my truck by scraping off the decal. Understand?
 
You just don't get it. Nobody gave the federal govt. supremecy before Lincoln. He did it.

When a member of a voluntary union resigns then they don't belong to the union and ejecting foreign troops off your property
is not waging war against the govt. of the United States.

Voluntary union, think voluntary union.

If I quit paying NRA dues, then I am not doing vandalism to the rear window of my truck by scraping off the decal.
Understand?


No, I understand the argument you've put forth. You're wrong, and your argument neglects the problems from the articles of confederation and the nullification crisis.

Basically, you're saying that States had complete sovereignty within their borders to do anything, including resign from the United States and attack and sieze Federal property.

Go back to the articles of confederation -- your position would have been pretty close to correct then. The central government was weak, couldn't tax, and barely survived the war for independence. It was out of disgust with the governmental system that the constitutional convention of 1787 was held, which resulted in the Constitution.

Some of the flaws were remedied by explicitly granting federal authority. Although weaker than our conception of it today, the Federal government then was still reasonably strong. The idea was to have a balance of power, with different authority between federal and state in their respective spheres of interest.


What you argued came up about 30 years before the Civil War, when South Carolina started vetoing federal tarriffs.

This was completely illegal. Madison, the chief architect of the Constitution, came out of retirement to debunk their justifications, which were similar to your argument. Clay helped shepherd through Congress a compromise bill which essentially put a lid on the matter, and Jackson was content to let bygones be bygones.

Your voluntary association argument is likewise baseless. States voluntarily joined with ratification, yes. States relinquished some of their authority in so doing. They gave the Federal government supremacy. Conceptually you're mistaken if you read the preamble, particularly the
bit about 'form a more perfect union,' which means that there was already a union. The states were already something more than just some random geographic coincidence. Legally, secession was a concrete violation of Article 4, section 3. I'd argue that it denied certain persons their protections under section 2, first clause, and also that in denying the validity of all American law it was repugnant to section 1. This was all a moot point when Lincoln, acting under Art 4 sec 4, as Commander in Chief and chief magistrate acted after the attack on Sumpter to protect the rest of the country.

Attacking a fort and trying to kill American soldiers is more significant than scraping a decal off your window. It's insurrection and treason, per the Constitution, which merits a military response.
 
Dischord,

A most disengenuous reply. When you are eligble for SS, you will take it, even though you say you will not now. You may expect you won't receive benefits because you are young. While benefits may be less than you like, you will get them. You will take it and be glad to get it. Unless you change your name and SS number you will get it. You can stand by whatever statement you want. You will not have much choice unless you lie or commit fraud.

Newsspeak and "Robbery" you call it? Do you have grandparents or parents or any other relatives who receive these benefits? Go talk to them and convince them to give the money back. Let me know how that goes.
 
Ben:

Secession has always been and still is perfectly legal. Some New England states considered it because of Jefferson's election. If California today chose to seceed (I wish they would) do you think Dubya would send in the troops?

No state, I repeat no state would ever have ratified the constitution if they didn't think they had the right to rescind. The FF were lots smarter than us today and if you think they were so stupid as to agree to that you, well fill in the blank.

You are spouting Lincoln apologist words.

He had to destroy the union to save it. The argument didn't work in Viet Nam either.
 
Secession has always been and still is perfectly legal.

Ok. Show me. Please, show me any part of the Constitution which says the state of Maryland can pack up and leave. Show me the provision which says "oh, but a single state can trump the authority of all other states and the federal government".

Please, cite anything at all to back up that statement.

Six hundred thousand Americans died the first and last time a state seceeded. That's rather a lot to hammer home a legal point, don't you think?

Secession is not now nor ever has been legal.

The Federal government had authority. That's why Madison, the chief architect of governmental power, author of the bill of rights, Virginian, the last of the founders, came out of retirement in the 30's to debunk the nullifyers whose rhetoric you're repeating.

No, I don't consider myself superior to the founders. That's why I try and support every argument I've made thus far with their words and actions. That's why I keep referencing the constitution.


No state, I repeat no state would ever have ratified the constitution if they didn't think they had the right to rescind.

Well, I find that really odd. Mainly because every copy of the Constitution I've checked was signed by J. Rutledge, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Charles Pinckney, Pierce Butler representing South Carolina, and contained Article 4. There are several other points stating the Federal authority is superior to that of States. How about A1S8 "[Congress shall have the power] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States"

All of A1 Section 10 is things that the states specifically may never do. State representatives signed to a document creating a federal government and restricting State powers. "Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation;"

Getting back on topic, No, Lincoln wasn't as bad as some claim, nor did he destroy the union. Now Buchannan, on the other hand....
 
Ok. Show me. Please, show me any part of the Constitution which says the state of Maryland can pack up and leave.
10th Amendment. The power to disolve the union is not given to the federal government. Therefore it is retained by the states.
 
Ben:

I am trying to work and consequentially, am unable to look it up. Seems to me though that one or more of the federalist papers argue that it this "new fangled" constitution don;t work, we can always get out of it.

Further seems that in the ratification debates of several states it was stated.

I will find it and make a new post. "Is secession legal?" something like that.

Secondly, I note that you pore over the constitution like you think it has some effect. Maybe the 3rd amendment. Everything else has been subverted beyond recognition.

ie. A1S8 you forgot to mention that (I paraphrase) congress could raise and support an army, but that no appropiation to that purpose should be for a period of more than 2 years.

Just fer grins, take your shootin' iron and go for a stroll in Lexington.
 
Russ says: When you are eligble for SS, you will take it ... You will take it and be glad to get it.
Is that an order, or are you making the logical flaw of ascribing motive to someone you don't know? :D

Anyway, Art Eatman has given us a friendly hint about this not being a SS thread, so if you want to continue our exchange, perhaps you should start a new thread entititled, "Russ' mystical ESP powers and his predictions about what dischord will think in the future." I'm really interested in learning about my future opinions.

By the way, that paragraph about talking to my relatives was another logical flaw (non sequitur).

Thanks for calling me "young." I've been feeling my age lately. :D
 
The thought just hit me. The document which authorizes secession.

It's called "The Declaration of Independence"
The DoI authorizes nothing :) It's not part of the Constitution.

The answer you are looking for is: "The federal government was not given the power to disolve the union. Therefore, under the 10th Amendment, the states and people retain that power." :)
 
I'm sure you just wrote without thinking.

Although the DoI is not part of the constitution, it IS a founding document. Further is amounts to a secession of the 13 colonies in congress from the British Empire.

Thus if it is not legal, our whole union is based on a crime. Sure, we got Cornwallis to agree, but that doesn't cure us from being criminals. Extortion.
 
Congress has the power to use the militia to suppress insurrections, and must guarantee to every state a republican form of government. I think that implies that states are not allowed to secede. If the country were a confederacy that argument might have some validity. It's not an alliance, it's a union. As someone already pointed out there are a whole host of powers prohibited to the states, the major ones being the prohibition against raising armies and entering into treaties. These are two essential components of soveriegn countries. In the Russian federation some of the component states have a lot of autonomy, and are allowed to make treaties with foreign countries, but even they aren't allowed to secede(as Chechnya found out).

I don't think either of these two presidents were as horrible as some people here are saying. They were both confronting terrible crises and they did what they could to keep the country together. I for one am glad there is one US and not two or more bickering nations competing for land and resources. As for FDR some people will never forgive him for the new deal programs and their descendents , but really I don't see it as so awful that the government has taken on new duties, given how much has changed since the time of the founding. Most Americans seem to see these as legitimate roles for the government. I do think he should have asked for a constitutional amendment to grant these powers rather than twisting the commerce clause to mean all sorts of things. I think the lesson there is: in a pinch, people will use whatever works.
 
I'm sure you just wrote without thinking.

Although the DoI is not part of the constitution, it IS a founding document. Further is amounts to a secession of the 13 colonies in congress from the British Empire.

Thus if it is not legal, our whole union is based on a crime.
I'm on your side about secession. But the DoI does not have legal authority. Sorry. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.
Congress has the power to use the militia to suppress insurrections ... I think that implies that states are not allowed to secede.
No it doesn't imply that. See the 4th page here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...rpage=25&highlight=insurrections&pagenumber=4. Specifically, see the discussion following this question: "Was or was not the secession of the Southern states from the Union legal under the US Constitution .. was the invasion of the South also legal under the Constitution?"
 
In the spring of 1861 the Missouri Legislature adopted a policy of "Armed Neutrality". They told both the Union and the Confederates to stay the hell out of Missouri.

Missouri did not secede until the Union Army invaded. Is that what you call guarenteeing a republican form of govt?

The feds OCCUPIED Missouri confiscated weapons from private citizens all up and down the Missouri River.

The legislature fled to Arkansas where they voted to secede.

For all that, we can thank Lincoln
 
It stuns me that people think that a president who is responsible for the deaths of 600,000 Americans and the total destruction of an entire region of the country is good. Linkoln was not a noble warrior out to free the slaves. He was interested in money and power like most politicians. Only he was willing to ignore the Constitution and kill an entire generation of men to insure it.
 
First Principles

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


If joining the Union is like joining the Mafia: the only way out is feet first, then we are all property of the government. The 13th Amendment doesn't mean squat.

The arguing about the language of the Constitution is hiding the main point. If you don't have the right of free association you are not free, no matter how many guns you own or how many newspapers you read.

Government is government and power is power. Ours started abandoning the principles laid out in the Declaration almost from day one.

I live in one of the counties on the Kansas border that was ordered depopulated by the Union in response to some "unpleasantness" on the part of some Confererate sympathisers. Every house/barn/outbuilding in the area was burned to the ground and the people were ordered to leave with what belongings they could carry. The rest was either stolen or destroyed by the Yankee army. I had family that was part of this. It generally doesn't make the history books for some reason.

Another history lesson. The raid on Lawrence Ks. was in retaliation for Jaykawkers burning a town called Osceola, Mo to the ground about a year earlier. That never makes the history books either.
 
MY take is that any state that attempts to leave the Union is essentially destroying the country and such efforts need to be defeated. You states rights guys live in a dream world if you think that any state trying to leave today would be allowed to do so.The idea of 13 independent little mini-sttes banding together voluntarily while reteaining the right to leave may have worked 225+ years ago, but the reality is that it just wont work today.
 
You states rights guys live in a dream world if you think that any state trying to leave today would be allowed to do so.
You are right. It wouldn't be allowed. What's that have to do with whether the right exists? Do you think someone here has advocated secession today? :confused:
 
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