Western Powders load data a little warm for 45 ACP? Or maybe Quickload is messing with me

[sequins]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Hello friends,

I am loading some 45 ACP using AA#5 powder, CCI 300 primers, MBC 230gn RN BB "Soft Ball" bullets, and mixed headstamp brass.

My bullets measure .652" in length and .452" in width nominally and for the sake of this exercise I'm counting all my cases as .898 length.

Reviewing the Western Powders 1st edition load book for AA#5 I see that they have loads for several 230 grain bullets, with max charges ranging from 7.7gn (Hornady XTP 230gn) to 8.7gn (Sierra FMJ 230gn) with starting loads from 6.6gn (Hornady XTP 230gn) to 7.7gn (MCB LRN BB 230gn). The Hornady XTP is a standout on the page as both the minimum and maximum are by far the lowest of any data listed, none of the other bullets have a minimum below 7.1gn or a maximum below 8.2gn. All of this data is published in their book under the 45 ACP AA#5 section.

The 45 ACP +P data is quite a bit more adventurous, with the Hornady XTP again standing out as the lowest minimums and maximums (7.7gn minimum, 8.1gn maximum) and with all other bullets indicating a minimum of at least 8.0gn and a maximum no less than 8.6gn.

Since I'm also loading a lead round nose beveled base bullet, the MBC 230gn Softball, I figured the MCB data would be a good start. The Western manual indicates a 1.230" COAL for the MCB bullet with a starting charge of 7.7gn (852 FPS) and a maximum charge of 8.5gn (968 FPS, 19,800 PSI)

Now, here's the rub, plugging this data into quickload I see max pressure for the MBC bullet is predicated to be reached at 7.5gn of AA#5 predicting a velocity of 953 FPS and 22,628 PSI. 7.7gn, the Western minimum charge for a presumably very similar bullet, indicates 976 FPS and 24,012 PSI. The Western max load of 8.5gn indicates an amazing 1068 FPS and a terrifying 30,573 PSI.

This surprised me so I went ahead and looked for some more conventional bullets that have the EXACT bullet listed in the manual AND pre-loaded in Quickload, such as the Nosler FMJ, and inputting the maximum of 8.7gn of AA#5 for the Nosler FMJ bullet at the Western specified COAL of 1.250" in Quickload indicates a velocity of 1030 FPS and a peak pressure of 24,506 PSI (quite an overcharge!). Western tells me that load would generate a mere 927 FPS at 19,300 PSI, so, that's a huge difference....

How different can two LRN BB bullets weighing 230gn be, and for that matter how can really every single row of data be wildly over pressure according to quickload? I was originally planning to start in the lower/middle range of 7.9gn-8.0gn of AA#5 but now I'm a little scared to do so- even the starting load is predicted to be above max, but on the other hand I'm highly doubting the veracity of the quickload preditions... In the past when I can't find my specific bullet I look for the most similar one I can and start towards the bottom of the load data, sanity checking it against the general load data on the page (If I'm not above a single load's maximum for any bullet construction I'm probably safe being the thinking) but now I'm second guessing that approach when published data for a comparable bullet (Again, both are LRN BB 230gn bullets) has a higher starting charge than my predicted maximum charge.

Anyone got experience with AA#5 and the 230gn Softball bullets from MBC? Is Quickload just misleading me? I'm surprised to see predicted maximum pressure at 7.5gn of powder for my bullets and when looking at the book I would expect to certainly not be hitting maximum until a much higher charge in the mid or even high 8.Xgn range. I'm rather new to the software but I figured with all the weird bullets I buy that don't have lots of published data it would be a good way to calculate starting points, but this software and the manual don't seem very well aligned. Perhaps I wasted my money on Quickload (or maybe I'm not intelligent enough to use it properly)? You'd think Western would be killing people if Quickload were accurately predicting these loads...

 

[Walkalong]

I don't know if it is the same one, but the first one I ever saw from them had some stout loads in it, including some .45 ACP 230 gr Enforcer data with some eye opening velocities. They have calmed it down since then.

 

[sequins]

I suppose I can start with a dramatic download and see how accurate the quickload predictions are, maybe 7.4gn of AA#5 and see what happens. I wanted to get to the 925-950 FPS range... Western estimates that'll give me less than 850fps while quickload says it'll give me 942 so I guess we're gonna find out.

 

[fxvr5]

Quickload estimates pressure and velocity. The Quickload author is the first one to point out that Quickload is no substitute for actual lab-measured data.

Western measures pressure and velocity. Trust only the Western data.

Also suggest you use the most recent Western loading manual. https://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf

Western dropped the 45 Auto Enforcer data because they felt it was not 'efficient'. But they still stand by it, according to this article:
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/99214

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I gave up on Quickload for straight wall cartridges.

I remember I put in some 45colt Ruger only data once, that John Linebaugh had tested at a lab and it produced ~30kpsi.

I put these loads in Quickload and it came back with ~72kpsi.

Haven't fired up Quickload in quite some time.

It was a fun toy for a while.

 

[Toprudder]

I exchanged some emails with the Ballistician at Shooters World. I was questioning their load data on the label of Auto Pistol powder for 45acp. I felt it was extremely high for a 230gn bullet, with a Nosler bullet. He went back and tested with Hornady XTP bullets and reached max pressure at a significantly lower charge, about 20% lower IIRC. He said something about the XTP bullets having a harder copper alloy.

 

[FROGO207]

Part of the difference is the cavity. That displaced metal has to go somewhere to keep the weight the same. So to keep the same profile and OAL for loading purposes they had to make the bullet longer. Less internal volume means a smaller charge to get Max pressure than using a FMJ. This is true of all hollow point bullets especially in handgun sized cases. The XTP having a harder jacket would increase pressure more the way I see it. You often see XTP specific data in manuals. Don't know about QL.

 

[Dudedog]

Here is a snip of Westerns data for .45 from their latest online manual


+ P Data

 

[ATLDave]

Hornady's own reloading manual data tends to run quite a bit lighter (charge) for a given pistol bullet weight than most other manuals. I think there probably is some truth to the notion that something in the construction of XTP's that bumps up the pressure... harder alloy, long bearing surfaces, something.

 

[sequins]

I've loaded 14 rounds at 8gn, 14 rounds at 7.7gn, and 14 rounds at 7.4gn

Those are big steps for sure but I want to see how quickload does vs. My chronograph for these loads. I feel like two mags each through the 1911 should get me some good averages.

I'll be testing this weekend and will report back. Starting with 7.4 obviously in case QL is anywhere near accurate.

 

[Walkalong]

Midway used to put out a load book by caliber. Some of it was real hot. Be careful venturing into the yellow, and real careful venturing into the red.

W-231 data is HOT, trust me.

 

[Toprudder]

Part of the difference is the cavity. That displaced metal has to go somewhere to keep the weight the same. So to keep the same profile and OAL for loading purposes they had to make the bullet longer. Less internal volume means a smaller charge to get Max pressure than using a FMJ. This is true of all hollow point bullets especially in handgun sized cases. The XTP having a harder jacket would increase pressure more the way I see it. You often see XTP specific data in manuals. Don't know about QL.

I thought the same thing, but the nose profile also comes into play. A round nose bullet can be longer than a HP. From the JBM website:

 

[748]

I have 9.3gr of HS-6 behind a plated 230gr bullet as being a +P load.
Standard HS-6 load is 8 to 8.5 behind a 230gr bullet, depending on style the bullet.