QuickLoad Help Requested: .45 230gr. LRN & Bullseye Powder

[ConcernedCitizen]

Would anyone be willing to help me model something on QuickLoad? (For what it's worth, I just informed my better half yesterday that I would like QuickLoad for Christmas, but that's still a month away...)

I've scoured every reloading manual I have, as well as spending countless hours on the internet trying to research this. I'm trying to find good load data for a 230 grain LRN using Bullseye powder.

Alliant no longer lists Bullseye for this application, and neither does Speer. Lyman shows a 5.0 grain max, and my old Pacific Tool chart shows 4.7 max, both for 225 grain LRN bullets. Where I'm getting confused is when I cross-reference these with the Hornady manual, which shows a 5.7 grain maximum load!

The Hornady load references their 230 grain LRN, but their design is a swaged bullet, rather than cast. Would this make a difference on maximum loads and their associated pressures? Is it safe to use this data with a more traditional 230 grain LRN, such as MBC's SoftBall?

Many different online sources reference 5.0 grains of Bullseye as being the traditional military load for the 1911. I feel pretty confident that this is a safe maximum, but would really like to see some pressure data to help alleviate my concerns.

Would anyone be willing to model this load between 5.0 and 5.7 grains of Bullseye? I don't plan to go to 5.7, but am very curious why Hornady's maximum load is so much higher than everyone else.

Thanks in advance!

 

[janobles14]

lee second edition has bullseye for 230 LRN as min of 4.0 and max at 4.0.



if you want quickload data here you go...



Cartridge : .45 Auto (ACP) (SAAMI)
Bullet : .452, 230, HOR LRN 12308
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.275 inch or 32.39 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant BULLSEYE


Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !


Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time

% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 50 4.40 759 294 11566 2291 90.0 0.853

-18.0 51 4.51 774 306 12113 2363 90.8 0.835

-16.0 53 4.62 789 318 12675 2435 91.6 0.817

-14.0 54 4.73 804 330 13253 2507 92.4 0.799

-12.0 55 4.84 819 343 13847 2577 93.1 0.782

-10.0 56 4.95 834 355 14457 2647 93.8 0.765

-08.0 58 5.06 849 368 15083 2716 94.4 0.750

-06.0 59 5.17 864 381 15725 2784 95.0 0.735

-04.0 60 5.28 878 394 16384 2851 95.6 0.720

-02.0 61 5.39 892 407 17059 2918 96.1 0.706

+00.0 63 5.50 907 420 17751 2983 96.6 0.693

+02.0 64 5.61 921 433 18460 3047 97.0 0.680 ! Near Maximum !

+04.0 65 5.72 935 446 19187 3109 97.5 0.668 ! Near Maximum !

+06.0 66 5.83 949 459 19931 3171 97.8 0.656 ! Near Maximum !

+08.0 68 5.94 962 473 20693 3231 98.2 0.644 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+10.0 69 6.05 976 486 21472 3290 98.5 0.633 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!



Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge

Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:

+Ba 63 5.50 944 455 20350 2998 99.5 0.652 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:

-Ba 63 5.50 859 377 15193 2863 90.8 0.745

 

[918v]

because Hornady's bullet is shorter and takes-up less room in the case. It is shorter because it lacks a lubricant groove in the shank. The shorter the bullet, the more case volume, the lower the pressure, the more powder you need to reach a certain velocity. Notice the Hornady manual runs their bullet all the way to 900 FPS while Lyman and Speer keep it around 800.

I have a Midway USA Load MAP. It lists a max of 6.1 grains of Bullseye for the Speer and Hornady swaged bullets, and 5.7 for a cast RN. The velocity for these is approximately 950 FPS.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

Thank you both for your replies!

I have no intentions of approaching the 5.7 grain mark, but was curious as to the discrepancy between the load data. 918v, your explanation about the bullet length makes a lot of sense. I knew the bullet design had to have something to do with it.

As a side note, does anyone know where to find the Midway USA Load MAPS anymore? I have one for .357 Magnum, but failed to pick up the others before they disappeared.

Thanks!

 

[benzuncle]

Concerned, here's my 2¢ worth. It isn't technical so I can't say how much it will help, but it should at the very least give you some comfort. I've loaded 3 pounds of Bullseye at 5gr behind 230gr LRN's with zero problems. That's 4200 rounds fired down range without a problem. I chose this load based on many forum contributors that mentioned (just as you did) the 5gr charge for 230gr LRN. As 45ACP isn't a high pressure round per se, you should be good to go with 5gr.

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

I appreciate the feedback, benzuncle.

5.0 grains of Bullseye behind a 230 grain projectile does seem to have quite a loyal following, so that's where I'll likely end up. I just tend to err on the cautious side, and like to compare as many different sources of load data as possible before settling on a recipe.

I'm planning on running a test batch over the chronograph as soon as we have some dry weather. I'll be working my way up from 4.1 grains, and will also be trying out another batch loaded with Unique.

I'll post chronograph results when possible. Thanks again!

 

[Jim Watson]

You will be fine, there has been a lot of .45 ACP loaded with 5 gr Bull and a 230 gr bullet.

Where you have to watch out is the heavier loads. They make some allowances to get much higher. The OAL is usually given as the SAAMI maximum of 1.275". Problem with that is, you are not going to be able to shoot a round that long in a standard gun unless it is with original style elliptical nose bullets. Most of the RN on the market is much blunter than that.

One reason the Midway LoadMAPs fell out of use and out of print is that they loaded everything to the maximum unless the bullet was so short as to not be seated in the case. That let them go to quite high charge weights in a single shot test barrel. Seat the bullets to where they would go in a magazine, up a feed ramp, and in a chamber and pressures would be higher than shown. Too high at the top end.

There was a long thread on another board about Quickload's limitations with straightwall pistol cartridges. Apparently you have to start with a known load and tweak the inputs until it gives you back what you started with. Then apply those tweaks to your desired load. Sounds iffy to me.

 

[Slamfire]

I ran my own tests. The original 1910 vintage load was 5.0 grains Bullseye with a 230 FMJ which gave a velocity of 800 fps. What lot was used and how it is different from today I don't know. However I decided that 800 fps was a good number to use for a "standard" 45 ACP load.

I have shot 230 LRN's that go 725 fps and they are very accurate and don't kick much.

I decided to test my own loads with Bullseye over a chronograph in my Kimber. I don't sort handgun bras by case head, I just shoot the stuff, throw it in a can, tumble the stuff and reload it.

I had about three different vintages of Bullseye and shot 230's with each. There was a difference over the screens, hard to prove that it is statistically significant.

I decided on a load of 230 Lead with 4.5 grains Bullseye would be a good one and clocks at 800 fps in a M1911.

That is good enough for me.

[SIZE="3"]Kimber Custom Classic M1911

230 LFN Bull-X 3.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"	


8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =	643.6				
Std Dev =	14.07			
ES =	63.63			
High = 	679.9		 		
Low =	616.3				
N =	32
				 
      shot a little high Pistol cycled each shot



230 LFN Bull-X 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.20" taper crimp .469"		
		

8-Jan-06	T = 61 °F

Ave Vel =	715.9				
Std Dev =	11.45			
ES =	48.32		 		
High = 	742.9		 		
Low =	694.8				
N =	32				 
shot a little low

					



230 gr LRN 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
	
29-Jan-06 T = 68  °F	
Ave Vel =698.8				
Std Dev =10.19		
ES =36.33		 		
High = 713.5				
Low =677.1				
N =28
				 
V. Accurate
		
230 gr LRN  4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed Brass WLP OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"		
21-Jun-06 T = 97  °F	
	
Ave Vel = 805.2		
Std Dev =11.4		
ES=54.08		
High=836.9		 
Low=782.8		 
       N =32


230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye lot BE532 (80's mfgr)  Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
16-May-09  high 83  °F	 
					
Ave Vel =	782.7				
Std Dev =	13.41				
ES =	52.05				
High = 	815.5				
Low =	763.4				
N =	28				
					
					
230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250"  taper crimp469"
16-May-09  high 83  °F	.
					
Ave Vel =	805.2				
Std Dev =	38.07				
ES =	136.9				
High = 	912.4				
Low =	775.5				
N =	24				
					




230 gr LRN Valiant 4.5 grs Bullseye lot 827 (60's/70's powder) Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.250" taper crimp .469"
16-May-09	 high 83  °F	
					
Ave Vel =	822.9				
Std Dev =	14.14				
ES =	55.24				
High = 	853.7				
Low =	798.4				
N =	26	[/SIZE]

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

I've noticed that a lot of people seem to like the 800 fps mark. I really can't wait to test these loads out. I'm hoping tomorrow will be dry enough to break out the chronograph.

As a side note, any tips on using chronographs in inclement weather? Does everyone just wait for a dry day, or does anybody use a canopy or umbrella and shoot in the rain? The last thing I want to do is fry my chronograph due to moisture. I figure it's got enough to worry about as it is...

 

[LeonCarr]

I know a couple of USPSA shooters (old school types, not "gamers") that have been using 5.0 of Bullseye with a 230 LRN or 230 FMJ at 800-850 fps in their .45s for going on 25 years. These are the guys shooting the bone stock or slightly modified 1911s that never have any problems with malfunctions or making major power factor. It is also amazing that when other shooters are having malfunction issues with their "fancy" ammo, these guys loan them some of the 5.0 Bullseye/230 ammo and their malfunctions go away.

The load works.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr